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DINAS big brother(s)


ajc9988
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So, I'm at a crossroads. I will put the 5.1 system on the back burner. Instead, I'm trying to finalize my driver selection. Since DINAS are a powered speaker, I am planning on doing the same.

I have two sets of drivers selected for the bookshelves. They will have DSP built in and will have where you can adjust the corrections through the WONDOM app. So, without further ado, the driver lists:

Budget friendly DINAS "Bro"

1) Savard RAP 6.5" (sub)
2) Dayton Audio RS150P-8A
3) Peerless by Tymphany NE19VST-04

DINAS roided out "Bro"

1) Savard Hi-Q 6.5" (or Sundown Audio SA6.5 which is currently about the same price as the Hi-Q, give or take $10)
2) Tang Band W6-1721
3) Peerless by Tymphany DA25TX00-08

Now, both versions will be powered by the Wondom JAB5 4x100W amplifier with bluetooth and DSP built in.
https://store.sure-electronics.com/product/756

And the Power Supply is the LRS-350-36 (36V)
https://power-nex.com/product/lrs-350/

After they release the ISP5 (currently ISP1 and ISP3 are for sale, ISP5 expected end of the month), I plan on putting one per speaker. Why? Because in their infinite wisdom, even though they have bluetooth already on the amplifier, you still need this to program it with the Sigma program or to use their app. Why would you want to use their app when you can calibrate it before calling it good? So that you can do room correction in the future while using REW to measure the reflections, allowing for this to be done IN SPEAKER, meaning no matter which room you put this in, you can customize the EQ on the speaker to sound great in the room, instead of just making a flat response and hoping for the best.

image

So instead of having the control knobs on the back with a standard plate amp, you will have more fine control through a phone app (although no automated process for an algorithm to do it for you; sorry).

It also means you have to setup for two USB cables to be connected on the back. And I still plan on buying a cheap aluminum plate, an aluminum heatsink to screw onto the plate, then soldering small blocks to the aluminum plate over the components that need a heatsink (this is subject to change, but would be to replace the fans on the power supply and the amp; either that or I may do something else; still planning).

The DSP in the amp will act as an active crossover for the three speakers and two of the 100W channels are able to be bridged, meaning you can feed 100W to the woofer and tweeter each, then 200W to the sub.

As to price, you would be looking at about $600 for a pair of the budget friendly set (price still in flux during planning), while the pair for the Tang Band roided build would be closer to $850 or so for a pair (I'm building 2 pair, one for my parents and one for myself).

I would love thoughts on this build.

Specifically:
1) Do you think (even with the DSP present) that the sound quality of the Tang Band speakers and the distortion levels are improved enough to justify the additional price?

2) Is it worth paying the extra for the DA25TX00-08 because they are more sensitive (so you would use less wattage) which also would allow for more attenuation if needed in the high end with the DSP EQ?

3) Would the extra $30 on the sub give you less distortion or smoother bass (I'm leaning toward the $100 subs on this one, but would like to hear from other's that know more)?

4) Is the APP worth the money to buy the programmer for each and every speaker? Or just buy one, calibrate the speaker with the calibrated microphone once (or every so often if you feel the response has changed), and call it good? You could just hook it up to a laptop in the same room, after all (requires mounting a plug to accept the plug between the boards on the backplate, instead of mounting just two USB ports to extend to the plugs for each board; unless using an easily removed backplate to access the connector on the amp), and correct in the final spot it will be in.

5) is there anything I am not seeing in this build? Any cool ideas to build on from what I just laid out?

6) Which of these two builds (or a Frankenstein of the suggested drivers, or another driver or tweeter you want me to consider) would you want to own more? Which of these two builds would you buy?

Remember, these are basically studio monitors on how loud they will be and most of the frequency coverage.


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ajc9988
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I was mistaken. Turns out this is the DSP chip and type to allow for an autoEQ in Sigma software using data from REW. So that means it should be able to help even if you do not care to tweak it by hand.
https://ez.analog.com/dsp/sigmadsp/f/q-a/64304/adau1701-sigmastudio-rew-auto-eq
https://ez.analog.com/dsp/sigmadsp/f/q-a/65120/mlssa-and-auto-eq-algorithm


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123Toid
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1) Do you think (even with the DSP present) that the sound quality of the Tang Band speakers and the distortion levels are improved enough to justify the additional price?  

The tweeter is definitely a step above. I've used the other peerless tweeter and I am not a fan.  SO I would either upgrade the tweeter or go with a  different one.  I'm not sure I would choose the W6 as a mid-range by itself.  Although, it is a great speaker and it is an underhung motor, so it will be great.  If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the second set of drivers.

2) Is it worth paying the extra for the DA25TX00-08 because they are more sensitive (so you would use less wattage) which also would allow for more attenuation if needed in the high end with the DSP EQ?

THe one real benefit is while DSPing it you have a much less of a chance of accidentally blowing it.  I do love that tweeter though.

3) Would the extra $30 on the sub give you less distortion or smoother bass (I'm leaning toward the $100 subs on this one, but would like to hear from other's that know more)?

I think your sub choice is fine.  Although, it is a little weird that your sub is the same size as your midrange.  That is atypical.  BUt it is your design, so if those are the drivers you like, then go for it.

4) Is the APP worth the money to buy the programmer for each and every speaker? Or just buy one, calibrate the speaker with the calibrated microphone once (or every so often if you feel the response has changed), and call it good? You could just hook it up to a laptop in the same room, after all (requires mounting a plug to accept the plug between the boards on the backplate, instead of mounting just two USB ports to extend to the plugs for each board; unless using an easily removed backplate to access the connector on the amp), and correct in the final spot it will be in.

I'm a little confused on this question.  The Wondom boards use Sigma studios, which is free.  You would then just need to buy one ICP-1 from Wondom or from Parts-Express.  Dayton Audio DSP amplifiers are the Sure Amplifiers rebranded.  I would still get a calibrated mic.  WIthout it, you are just guessing witht he DSP.  Let me know if I missed something though. 

5) is there anything I am not seeing in this build? Any cool ideas to build on from what I just laid out?

Looks like a good idea to me.  I am interested to see how it turns out.

6) Which of these two builds (or a Frankenstein of the suggested drivers, or another driver or tweeter you want me to consider) would you want to own more? Which of these two builds would you buy?

I would consider this peerless tweet over both of them: http://bit.ly/xt25bg60   It would save you some money and is an excellent performer.  It is the same one I chose when I built my studio monitors. 

For the midrange, this 4": https://bit.ly/2Qz1Xr9 I used with great success or you could even check out this 5 1/4" HDS: https://bit.ly/3v4zpVg   Both of these should be easy to work with and should get you really good sound. I would keep the mid a little smaller than the subwoofer.

https://www.youtube.com/123toid


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ElliottDesigns
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Hey there guys,

It's been a while since I've been online but I've started freelancing whilst at uni to save up for speaker building. Anyway getting to a few tips I have for this project...

I love the Wondom DSP amps. The problem with Jab5 (4x100W) is that it doesn't support 4ohms, only a minimum of 6 if you look in the specifications. It's really frustrating since I was going to use the board myself and only found out a couple of weeks ago I couldn't. Instead, I'm opting for 2 Jab3/3+ (haven't decided which yet). I found it should still be cheaper overall since 2 lots of 24v 5A power supplies are still cheaper than 1 36V 15A power supply needed for the full potential from the 4x100 amp. (well its cheaper over here in the UK anyway, not sure about the price differences for you guys).

As for DSP, I'd highly recommend using REW as you mentioned, but it's actually quite a capable board, so what I will be doing is using a free program called rePhase, import the DSP profile from REW and convert it to a linear phase FIR filter to use in the DSP (it's a great method and I'm currently using my PC to do the signal processing, (equaliser APO)). Normal EQ has always sounded a bit off for me and I found out that it's because the phase gets shifted over the frequency range depending on what frequencies have what gain etc. You don't get that with FIR filters but you do get some delay (which I'm alright with). Also, with the DSP boards, I would recommend doing a time offset for the tweeter to get it properly time aligned with the midbass.

Hope at least some of this helps!

Elliott

Elliott Dyson - Mechanical Engineering Student and 3D printing & Design Freelancer


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ajc9988
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@123toid - Well, you will be happy to know that before seeing this, I changed and decided on a different sub and mid woofer.

1) SB Acoustics SB23MFCL45-8 (unless the Dayton RSS210HO-8 would have less distortion, but I think the SB would have the similar performance while less distortion),

2) SEAS Prestige U18RNX driver.

The SEAS driver costs the same as the Tang Band, but I think would work out better. That, combined with the SB Acoustics sub performance should be a better selection.

I had already decided to go to the DA25TX00-08, but will look the one you recommended over.

For the question on the programming board, when connected to a PC, I'd only have to have one board to program. But, WONDOM also has a phone app which allows for changing the other elements. After finding the autoEQ and reading ElliottDesigns post, I think I'll just program each speaker to flat separately using that method.

As to calibrated mics, I have a miniDSP UMIK-1 that has a separate calibration file from Cross-Spectrum Labs.

@ElliottDesigns - Thank you for the response as well.

I hear you on the JAB5 being limited to 6 Ohms. I currently was asking Sure Electronics if the two channel bridged to 200W, because that should cause it to be 12 Ohm potentially, could handle an 8 Ohm load.

That is also why I chose the 8 Ohm versions of the SEAS Prestige U18RNX and the SB Acoustics sub that is 8 Ohm. Also, the DA25TX00-08 is 8 Ohms, so if the AMP bridged channel can handle up to 150W at 8 Ohm (the RMS of the SB sub), then the JAB5 becomes the perfect compliment.

I will roll around what you mentioned on the JAB3s or what I might do is get the other component for running the channels and get the 2.1 channel amp that has 2x200 and 1x400W. But I'm about to purchase the speakers I mentioned anyways (unless someone can point out why the Dayton sub would be the better buy).

Also, thank you on the linear phase FIR filter. Definitely worth it. I also loved using equalizer APO. GREAT CONTROL!

Also definitely planned on the time delay if needed (I am thinking of going open baffle for the tweeter on top to better push it back to align it with the other drivers; but, even then, timing can be an issue and you have to watch out for too far back effecting sound below the top ridge for the cabinet, which means the time delay is a great compromise to accomplish anything I cannot do properly with driver alignment).

Thank you both!


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ElliottDesigns
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@ajc9988

Glad I could help. I'd probably avoid the open baffle tweeter, you are more likely to reach excursion issues and it can cause phase problems making your crossover design (active too) really difficult because you then need to measure the phase and offset it using FIRs. Probably worth just enclosing it since it's unlikely to be worth the effort to do the phase correction for that.

In terms of ohms, you will be perfectly fine if the impedances are 8ohms. I assumed you had 4 ohm drivers (as I have). An amplifier can drive anything above its minimum, it's just less efficient.

Elliott Dyson - Mechanical Engineering Student and 3D printing & Design Freelancer


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ajc9988
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@elliottdesigns - Good to know regarding the tweeter and open baffle.

Also good to know on the amp. If I may ask, considering the impedance difference (and going 6 Ohm to 8 Ohm usually drops wattage supplied from 100W to 80W, depending on a couple factors and roughly converted on some designs out there), do you think 100W per channel feeding a 100W RMS tweeter and 80W driver would be enough? Or 200W not being too much for the bridged channel (with the channel still only having 150W RMS needed by the sub, but 200W bridged should be 12 Ohm (whole no free energy thing), so it may work the channel harder)?

Sorry, I am still a noob (although SigmaStudio does look up my alley).


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ElliottDesigns
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@ajc9988

Nah, it's fine, we were all noobs at one point. If the tweeter already has an enclosure, open baffle wouldn't make a difference and 100W RMS would be fine. If it doesn't come with its own enclosure (unlikely but can happen) then you need to test it in the enclosure you are building it in winISD and see what wattage it can handle with your crossover filter simulated in the filter tab. You then increase the wattage whilst looking at driver displacement until it reaches xmax, that should be your maximum wattage value. (you can ignore all that if the tweeter is enclosed because the RMS value they provide you would already take the excursion into account).

You do the same with the woofer and the subwoofer to see what the maximum wattage you should be feeding those is. With the high pass applied to the woofer you are simulating, and the low pass applied on the subwoofer. (This gives you accurate results but you need to make sure the crossovers are applied before you put any power into them otherwise you can go past excursion limits and damage the drivers). Steeper filters allow for less excursion but when using linear phase filters it will keep adding more and more delay for the filter to still be accurate. So try and find a happy medium. I would say setting the subwoofer to woofer crossover at 80hz is usually a safe bet. Depending on how capable the woofer driver is though, this may need to be set higher. Unfortunately when going higher than 80hz you might start 'hearing' the subwoofer which you might not like. Anything up to 120hz isn't too noticeable for most but people more sensitive to directional cues would want to keep it around 80hz. Any lower than 80 there's really no point unless you are setting your sound system up in a warehouse 😂🤣.

 

Elliott

Elliott Dyson - Mechanical Engineering Student and 3D printing & Design Freelancer


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ajc9988
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@elliottdesigns - Turns out I will get the SB sub. Same guy that designed the Scan-speak 22W/8851T, so it should be a very good solution. Finding out the same talent did the design makes a difference (skill is skill, so even if making compromises, likely would not compromise in ways that sacrifice performance significantly).

And I will keep that in mind. The subs are in the same speaker cabinet (but own compartment) in this design. I'm shooting for a 40-20,000 design on axis (although the tweeter starts diverging off axis at around 6,000 or 7,000).


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ajc9988
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Some others have complained about the SB subs. I think they are fine. But I wanted to know if people feel other subs should be considered (including 10 and 12" subs)

CSS SDX10 XBL2 (have to save up longer, don't like the distortion shown in AudioXpress here: https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-the-sdx10-home-audio-woofer-from-css-audio ; but still considered a decent sub)

Peerless by Tymphany 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer
Peerless by Tymphany XXLS-P835016
Dayton Audio RSS265HO-44
Dayton Audio UM10-22 (would have to switch to the 2x200 and 1x400W amp)
Dayton Audio MX12-22 (same)
Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4


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123Toid
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@ajc9988

The RSS subs are pretty good. The CSS SDX12 is unbelievable  Love it! Very low distortion and high linearity.  However, you are paying for the quality and will want to dsp a high pass (I have the passive radiator version).  I have a 15" Max-x (mx15-22) but haven't made a box yet.  For what it's worth, Chris Perez, a engineer for Parts Express seems to really like them.  For the price, it might be your best bet.  I haven't modeled the MX12-22 yet, so you may want to do that to make sure it'll do waht you want it to in your sized box. 

https://www.youtube.com/123toid


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ajc9988
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@123toid - I have modeled a couple so far. Kind of narrowed the field to the following:

SB Acoustics SB23MFCL45-8 (8",limited and cannot be put in too large of a box without exceeding X-Max; but if like the other SB subs, low distortion above 50Hz)

Peerless XLS-P830452 - well regarded, good on distortion, 10", able to be used in a small vented box (like 1.268ft^3 models to F3 25 and others have achieved F3 of 27 or 28 with this sub); drawback is it needs vented or dsp to unlock, which I plan on using both, so no real drawback

MX12-22 - This little guy is a beast; models decently well, but needs a box the size of the RSS265HO-44 to really unlock it; it can match the RSS HO performance with fewer watts in an equivalent box, or it can keep up with the SB in a similar size smaller enclosure. Dayton has this going for it: it can do low distortion under 50Hz and can go deep. But, Dayton, in designing for that, has more distortion than others in the 50Hz and above range, which can muddy types of music and other sounds compared to some competitors. That doesn't mean it is bad, just it has limited use cases. Also, above 100Hz, some models seem to go off the rails, so some daytons have to be crossed there, which is often fine as that is before directionality of the sound really picks up.

Now, Peerless is the quietest of all three, but it also can be used in the smallest space while still having a flat response. The SB is good, but limits out due to box size. The MX12-22 seems really nice, as it is able to fit in a decently small space, but can hit deep.

image

From left to right is the following (all vented (all 120Hz LP filter except U18)):

Dayton RSS265HO-44 2.1ft^3 23.3Hz tuning freq. 1.5"x12"x38.87" port 174.06Hz 1st port resonance HP filter 15Hz LR

SB23MFCL45-8 1.2ft^3 25.8Hz tun. freq. 1.375"x8"x33.98" vent 199.09Hz 1st port resonance HP filter 22Hz butterworth 2

MX12-22 1.066ft^3 33.36Hz tun freq 1"x12"x24.29" vent 278.52Hz 1st port res. HP filter 10Hz LR

XLS-P830452 0.488ft^3 41.58 tun freq. 0.875"x10"x25.38" 266.56Hz 1st port HP filter 15Hz LR

U18RNX-P 0.644ft^3 48Hz Tun. Freq. 1.5"x7"x16.32" 414.5Hz 1st port res. HP butterworth 2 - 32Hz

The U18s can already play down pretty low. So even without a sub, these could do well.

image

P830452 - 35.9L (1.268ft^3) 26.1Hz
SB - cone excursion at 3.35ft^3 21.92Hz
MX12-22 - 2.273ft^3 24.1Hz

Didn't change the RSS HO nor the U18. But that extends all of them to the 20s to low 30Hz.

The CSS 10" would add $240-280 over the price of these drivers, which is why it is not in the running. If I had the budget for that, I would try to likely stretch it to the SB 12" sub, if being honest. All of the above are around $140. But unless I build a smaller box, the SB is excluded, and it feels like the peerless or the MX12 may be the better choices. Difficult decision. Really comes down to if I want a 2.5' box or 3'+ tower.

As to the drivers that came in:

SEAS Titans: 2 are like a perfect matched set; 1 is around the same FS as the two in that set, but 1 is around 900Hz FS, over 60Hz higher than its brethren. All pass the rub and buzz.

SEAS U18: for the two that came in, they passed the rub and buzz.

image

Both have the bump in impedence around 1000Hz (this model, in the spec sheet, normally had the bump around 700Hz, which you can see a little bit around, but usually the bump the size of 1KHz was around 700Hz in the spec sheet).

I ordered 4xJAB5 from Sure Electronics, mainly because I could not find ADAU1467 boards cheep enough (because they are still so new). ADAU1467 development boards are about $170 a piece. But, it can run higher quality filters without an issue.

I ordered 4x500W@36V power supplies to run those boards (even though they are only 4x100W@6Ohm; that way I will never over run the power supply to make it heat or burn up).

So literally the sub is the last decision to make. But since the JAB5s are on the slow boat from china....

But more to come...


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ajc9988
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@123Toid - Here is an article showing the distortion for the CSS sub you love:> https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-the-sdx10-home-audio-woofer-from-css-audio <(Dickason testing) It has really low distortion from 20Hz all the way to 100Hz (or 200Hz), giving it a clean sound. Granted, this is the 15" SB Acoustic sub, but it does show where the distortion is and how quickly it dropped to lower than the 10". Now, I suspect part of what dropped the distortion so quickly is volumetric in nature, so I would suspect, to a degree, that the smaller subs from SB would also have low distortion, but would not reach as low and might take a little longer for the distortion to drop. But, generally speaking (and since this is the company that mfrs the Satori line of speakers), I think their subs should have similarly low distortion, even in the smaller ones, although it must be noted the 8" uses polypropylene, the 12" is paper, and the 15" is honeycomb paper fiber with fiberglass.  https://audioxpress.com/article/Test-Bench-Dayton-Audio-LS10-44-and-LS12-44-Shallow-Mount-Subwoofers
Now, you cannot use the shallow sub to really explore Dayton's distortion, but it gives a peak at what I was discussing in the distortion from 20-100Hz.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/360855-tale-12-subwoofers-distortion-15-dollars-20.html
That is where I wound up here, a great thread testing distortion (although he didn't have the Dayton subs by the time he had his methodology down).

That then led me to this website:
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org/le-prove/sub-woofer.html

There, you can look through the different size daytons and some of their testing, including by size for distortion. If you look at the 8", the distortion doesn't settle until 50Hz. If you look at the 12 and 15", they both settle down around 30-35Hz, which means a little bit of certain types of music can be effected.

Now, these are not the only factors, but this shows a bit on the distortion testing.

Also, it is clear some subs are already on a downward slope by 100Hz to 200Hz, whereas some are flat out to like 400Hz. Those that have a high peak between their low and 100Hz, you can use a DSP to tamp that down to flat. But, looking for something more relatively flat throughout (or like the CSS, small bump, but then fairly flat throughout after that, similar to a pop from a tuning port design) can allow for other characteristics to shine in the sub.

This isn't to say any sub is bad, designed wrong, etc. This is to point out that some trade-offs can be seen in those charts, while those that know better how to read the T/S factors can divine even more.

But, with that said, the 12" Daytons do really have low distortion quickly.

But that has been my rabbit hole on distortion and subs the past week or so. Fun stuff.

If I misstated anything or got something wrong, let me know.


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ajc9988
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Here is the impedance information from all of the current drivers I have. I have two more u18s ordered, but have to wait for a fresh shipment.

The Titan set 1 are almost a perfect matched set. The second set has a more significant separation between Hz (898Hz or about and 918Hz or about).

They all pass rub and buzz testing with it turned all the way up. I also used all the mem slots and ran the impedance over the +10dB to -40dB in increments of 2.5dB while having the settings to make it as difficult as possible.

Wanted to share in case anyone wanted to take a look.


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