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So i need to design some surround speakers  

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Dameo182
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16/10/2020 5:01 pm  

Ive just realised i made a mistake when i said about not being able to put a baffle step circuit into xsim, xsim was the frd file issue, but youve told me how to add that now, it was 'vituixcad' that i cant put the componants in in parralell, i got confused and called it xsim. On vituix cad theres componants that you click on and they appear in the driver wiring, its there where i cant add a BSC, because every single componant goes into the circuit in series as far as i can tell, i was following one of kirbys crossover videos but he doesnt show how to do that. Sorry, i just had to correct what i wrote above. 


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Dameo182
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17/10/2020 2:53 pm  

Can someone explain to me what im doing wrong with the xsim software please? So i found 123toids video on basically the exact build i want to do, only ive slightly changed box size and the tweeter as i like the look of the hivi tweeter. Now i tried putting in the exact drivers he used in that video and put the exact crossover details as his into the software, but i got this graph that looks terrible. I know ive done something wrong because i know that nicks crossover will be as good as it can be for those drivers. But why cant i reproduce it? 

This is nicks crossover taken from his video

Screenshot 20201015 201152 YouTube

 

And this is the graph i got by adding the same values and the same drivers

20201017 194342

I appologise for the very bad picture, i had to take a photo of my laptop screen, but hopefully you can see it if you enlarge the photo

 

Now this is what i got by messing with the values, only i changed the baffle step to allow for my wider baffle

20201017 194105

Ive no idea where its crossing over, or if its even a good graph, im literally just messing about trying to understand this software but i feel im failing 

My idea was that if i reproduced his crossover and get a nice graph, id be able to learn a bit about this xsim, i suppose it would help if i knew what the hell the graphs are showing me lol, but from what i can gather its around 7ohms nominal impedance? As i said ive no idea how to see where the drivers crossover, the tweeter i want to use is 3000 to 20000, so i imagine i need to cross at around 4500? 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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17/10/2020 4:19 pm  

Take note of the tweeter orientations. The one in Nick's video is reversed: positive of cross over goes to negative of tweeter and ground goes to positive of tweeter. Yours is the standard way around. 

Sometimes it helps to invert/change polarity of a driver to get the correct response. Flip your tweeter over and you'll see the change.

-Charlie


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Dameo182
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17/10/2020 4:55 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

Oh i had missed that, thankyou, ill put that into xsim and see how it changes it, im just trying to get this one crossover done, then i can move onto the sub/subs and maybe the rear support speaker you mentioned in an earlier post

 


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Dameo182
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17/10/2020 5:56 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

 

Im about to give up on this, ive changed the pos and neg connections and got this 

 

20201017 224736

 If i cant even recreate a ready made crossover with this software i imagine trying to get one of my own done will be a challenge, there must be something in the settings or something that i have wrong, but ive no idea what, this shouldnt be this hard, speaker buildings easy, right? Lol 


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Dameo182
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17/10/2020 7:10 pm  

Ok so ive had one last attempt, this is using the td20f tweeter, i know your probably sick of this forum thread now, but if you could take a glance at this and let me know if its ok or if its way off before i move on to the next thing. I think because im using a full range driver that im not seeing a crossover point like i first expected, because the tweeter is there to enhance the sound rather than take its place? Please correct me if im wrong as id like to learn as much as possible. Anyway this is the graph ive come up with 

20201018 001147

 

Sorry for the shitty pic again, and i know tge impedance is crazy in the trebble are but im hoping thats ok for this project as its higher not lower? 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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17/10/2020 7:50 pm  

Can you link his video here in this thread? I'd like to look at it when I get home and then see what I can do to recreate his measurements.

-Charlie


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Dameo182
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17/10/2020 8:39 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

No probs

 

The diagram is at 2.55 ish, but thats all he shows of the crossover, its a free build plan he created. I could build it to his design as hes given everything for it, but im basically trying to use it to understand the software. The last pic i uploaded is using a different tweeter purely because i like the look of those over the rear mounted ones. 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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18/10/2020 12:57 pm  

I've got everything downloaded, including the TD20F. I'll take a look at it a bit later - I have to go out and we'll see what my stamina is after I get back. I'm still not back to normal. Doc says it may take up to a month for that. I will get to it, you can bet on it.

-Charlie


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Dameo182
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18/10/2020 2:13 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

Well i hope your feeling better soon, theres no rush as i can still make the boxes and even fit the drivers, i mean i like the look of the graph i came up with, i added the baffle step to match my baffle, and notch filter, and it evened out pretty good i think, but the tweeter seems to have dropped way down in db when i click to show the curve of that on its own. Tbh with the notch filter the response of the pc83 on its own, to me, looks good. Im not even sure it needs a tweeter, but if you are able to add it with some benifit to the sound in your graph ill be glad of the result. And i appreciate the help as im really unsure of the results i got even with the flatish response on the graph. Its the impedance that worries me most as i cant go below 6ohms with this avr 

I wish there was a full tutorial of how to use xsim, the ones ive found are high speed or just focus on one part, if i could buy an actual txtbook to learn that from id buy it tomorrow, knowing whats good or bad would be a big help to me


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TVOR-Ceasar
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18/10/2020 6:49 pm  

I was able to reproduce the Reveal X-Over and then applied the same basic one to your tweeter choice, changing the Cap and Resistor values slightly to flatten things out. Reveal First:

The Reveal x over Schem
The Reveal x over Freq
The Reveal x over Imp

 Now a slightly revised version specific to the TD202F-4:

Dameo182 MTM x over Schem
Dameo182 MTM x over Freq
Dameo182 MTM x over Imp

Take note, this keeps the Impedance at or above 8 ohms - definitely in the safe zone of your amp.

You could drop the 2.7uF down to 2.2 and it'd smooth it just a tad more. What that does is moves the crossover frequency up a bit more.

As an exercise, this is just the 2 PC83-4's in series (8 ohm) in case you want to do that for the Height speakers.

PC83 4 series scehm
PC83 4 series Freq
PC83 4 series Imp

For your Future picture outputs for XSim, Go up to the :FILE: pulldown and select Snapshot>To Picture File and select the size you want. I chose "As Shown" for mine.

Let me know if you have any questions on how I got these into and out of XSim. I'll be happy to help if I can.

-Charlie


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Dameo182
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18/10/2020 7:20 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

Thankyou for that, theres a few things i could use some help to understand, but i have to sleep now for an early shift tomorrow, so ill post properly after work, thanks again 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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19/10/2020 5:30 pm  

Actually, I am looking at your original photos on a larger screen and the problem is that you were using a Coil instead of a Capacitor on the tweeter. Tough to see on a phone. Then when you switched over the TD20F, you fixed that.

-Charlie


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Dameo182
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19/10/2020 5:56 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

Oh what an idiot i am, i hadnt realised until i just read your comment, no wonder it wasnt working. So my last attempt where i put the right componant inplace, the one with the notch filter, is that an ok crossover then, as in i could use it and it all work fine? I noticed on your crossover you didnt bother with the nitch filter, is that not needed in a crossover containing a tweeter like this is? 

Also i wondered, do you have to input the volume of the box these drivers will be contained in to get the right response from the xover? Surely box size affects everything were doing in this simulation? 

Im just in the middle off adding your crossover design into xsim, to check i get the exact same response as you, so i can be sure my settings are right. Ill probably use exactly what you came up with as its less componants than i used with the NF


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Dameo182
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19/10/2020 5:59 pm  

Oh also, is it better to make a xover in this software without a baffle step circuit, as depending on the baffle that will change wont it? For mine i need 0.9 inductor, but wont the results be lying if a baffle step is added to this software instead of a flat respoonse then adding it in later using the online calculator?


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