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Mjcril
(@mjcril)
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@gerard

I can see you are excited, I would be too. Looks like you picked out a nice set. Although, I must say, the point of the group buy... is that you can lower costs if you do it together. Once organized... we may be able to see significant price drops if we stay together for the order.

 

@ajc9988 also... It also looks like they have a pre-sale on a 8" woofer...

Wom200_vPA-S
High quality 8" woofer.

Kartesian Wom200 vPA S Data

 

"the unit price is 158€ (without taxes - EXW), pre-sale."

 

@ajc9988 is there an excel pinned with current reservations? Also, any idea on how payment would work in this group buy... directly to seller id imagine


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mp9
 mp9
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Posted by: @123toid

If anyone is interested in Kartesian drivers, let me know and we can see about a group buy. 

 

interested in a pair of Lom 165_vPA-H


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ajc9988
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@mjcril - Where did you find the 8", if I might ask. I mean, it would add an extra $250 to the cost over the 6.5" speakers, but I would like to play with the T/S parameters in WinISD (usually on the second page of the 2 page PDFs for the spec sheets). That would be instead of thinking of adding 2 more Wom_120s so that the theoretical dB levels of the surround match the rest of the 5.0 system.

I'm still wondering how much duties and shipping will be, along with if the distributor will be shipping the group buy to a single US address to then be shipped on by the organizer of the group buy (which then is extra shipping cost on the second leg) or if it is done like drop shipments (probably the latter).

That I am aware of, there is no current excel pinned with reservations, although it may be getting close enough that one should be started. Depending on costs, I'm looking, tentatively, at 8-10x Wom120_vMS-8, 4xWom165_vMS-8, and 5xTwt28_vHP-8. That is enough for 2 floor standing speakers, 2 bookshelf speakers as surrounds, and a center speaker.

Floor Standing:
1xWom165_vMS-8 each
2xWom120_vMS-8 each
1xTwt28_vHP-8 each
Crossover from sub at 80-100Hz, mids cross around 1000-1300, twt cross at around 3000

Bookshelf:
1xWom165_vMS-8 each
1 or 2xWom120_vMS-8 each (still debating due to sensitivity of speaker versus size of the bookshelf)
1xTwt28_vHP-8
Crossover at 1000-1300Hz (higher if only 1 mid), 3000Hz (lower or tapered first order on these if not using the second mid speaker)

Center
2xWom120_vMS-8
1xTwt28_vHP-8
Crossover at 3000Hz.

Shipping and customs are really the factors I don't know, and I haven't dug through the Harmonized Schedules for treatment of speakers as an import to then see what they fall under to figure out costs that way. I'm just hoping with a larger order, the drop on the per speaker cost is enough to help with the shipping costs and duties (which also may determine what I do with those bookshelf speakers on 1 or 2 mid speakers).

I'm hoping the others buying can help pull down some of the costs for the speakers further (I know I'm doing my part).

And I will have to do the sub from another company, partly due to costs, partly due to availability (would have to contact Kartesian directly to setup the purchase, etc.). This is already an expensive project. Also, since this is my first build, I'm keeping in mind that if need be, down the road I can harvest the speakers and put them in other builds or cabinets made after I learn more and have more design experience.

For example, I plan on picking up the Master Handbook of Acoustics, Seventh Edition that is out this summer (current release date Aug. 27, 2021). Between that and other books I read, I can then take that back and make a new speaker cabinet fairly cheaply considering I'll already own the speakers and just have to buy the wood and redesign the crossovers, etc. Also means I can change things from any compromises made now down the road. Iterate until you get there. LOL.

Edit:

This is also why I like the Mid120_vHE compared to the Wom120_vMS for doing the mids. At a sensitivity of 91 over 88, respectively, you can cut the number of speakers needed in half. In the example on Kartesian's website of using the Wom165_vMS with the Twt30 and the twt12_vHP, the selection of the twt30 was to save room versus a 4" mid, then using the twt12 to help with off angle at higher frequencies, while getting a boost probably from a first order crossover, in order to carry it through the range. I don't know final sensitivity in the 10,000-20,000 range, though, with that combination.

I still prefer a dedicated mid, though. So, I would go with the mid120_vHE if they had it (it also would cut my costs from 8-10 speakers to 5, thereby freeing money to get more expensive subs or the 8" drivers that are on pre-order, or to take the Center to 2xWom165, 2xmid120, and 2 twt28, which would make the dB rating on it equal to the combined amount of the two floorstanding speakers (around 109dB potentially), while possibly being more efficient on power (I do not have the RMS of the mid120).

Edit 2: I forgot to mention there are benefits and drawbacks to each selection for mids (re: Wom120_vMS, Mid120_vHE, and twt30vMS with Horn). For the most accuracy, Wom120 will give it to you. The drawback: you need 2 drivers to get the sensitivity to match some other selections. But, the split on 30 and 60 degree off axis is higher. Benefit of Mid120_vHE is that you only need one, but it is less accurate in the 1300-3000 range, with a 60 deg off axis being around 3dB lower. For the Twt30, it has pretty good off axis accuracy to 3000Hz, but the manufacturer even mentions that to go to 1200Hz, they recommend the horn if you want to cross before that, there is no off axis data with the horn, and the combined cost of the twt and horn is the same as two Wom120s, which will give great performance, just are large in size. Also, the twt with horn boosts the sensitivity a bit, which may need addressed in crossover design or by adding more woofers for under midrange and/or more tweeters to compensate (or going for a louder tweeter, maybe a compression, just be sure to check accuracy).

So, you have accurate and large, cheaper and less accurate, but able to put budget elsewhere to make up on it, or smallest size with decent performance, but costing as much as the most accurate solution. Everything is a compromise, so choose your poison.


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hifisven
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@mjcril I agree with you, the whole point of a group purchase would be to get some relief as far as cost for product or s&h, or hopefully both.

I like the 8” (WOM200...) you found. That would change my shopping list, but I can’t find it anywhere.  Did you find that on the TLHP website? Maybe it’s just an archived product?

Sure would be nice if their whole range of product was available.


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Gerard
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Posted by: @mjcril

@gerard

I can see you are excited, I would be too. Looks like you picked out a nice set. Although, I must say, the point of the group buy... is that you can lower costs if you do it together. Once organized... we may be able to see significant price drops if we stay together for the order.

 

Hi Mjcrill

I'm Located in France, this is why i don't participate to this purchasing group launched by Nick, but hope this will be a good opportunity for US guy's to buy theses exciting's drivers.

My package will be at house tomorrow.....arghhhh excited!


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mp9
 mp9
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Depending on the cost I may be interested in doing something with the Wom250_vHE instead of the Lom 165_vPA-H


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hifisven
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@mp9 You and me both.  WOM250_vHE is on my shopping list as well, well... IF they will be able to supply them.  Crossing fingers! 🙂 


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Mjcril
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@hifisven Hello Sir, i reached out to their distributor asking specifically about the 8" driver... due to the "Uglies" way back when... which subsequently evolved into a rabbit hole of itself... which a friend of mine put together... His build he calls the Thor's use TB's 8in driver... and I think through a bit of tweaking I can get the system to align to the 4 way crossover design with a nice smooth curve.


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Mjcril
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@gerard Sorry for the assumptions friend. Glad you got a pair of drivers that you liked.

Best,


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Gerard
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Posted by: @mjcril

@gerard Sorry for the assumptions friend. Glad you got a pair of drivers that you liked.

Best,

No Problem 😀 

Guy's Got it theses are gorgeous, and well crafted. Sub 120 & Twt 30

IMG 2538

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123Toid
(@123toid)
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ALright guys, as soon as I hear back I'll let you know

https://www.youtube.com/123toid


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hifisven
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@mjcril Ooops!  So sorry, but I totally overlooked your response about the 8 inchers from Kartesian.  My apologies!  Well, seems your friend has done a great job making the ‘Uglies’ (Thor?) and it sounds you can or will make them sing even better.

So, what I am also hearing is that your detective work with Kartesian/distributor (TLHP?) didn’t get you anywhere?  That’s too bad, but muchas gracias for checking and sharing the info.  Yeah, a rabbit hole it seems at the moment, but I hope it’ll be worth the wait in the long run.  And when I say ‘muchas gracias’, I mean it the Mr. Bean on vacation in France way... 🇫🇷 

 


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ajc9988
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@roldavis (and any others that wanted to look at these for building bookshelf speakers) - I just finished the design of my center, but with the specs, these would make good bookshelf speakers OR you could even build five of them and just add a sub for a 5.1 system. They are around 120W RMS, give or take (try not to run the 50W RMS speakers much above that in the enclosure, as they are near cone excursion much above that). Details are here:
https://toidsdiyaudio.com/community/postid/6224/

(includes a cut list at the bottom of the image of the excel spreadsheet).


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