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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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Good Morning and Hello DIY Builders,

 

My name is Etienne, and I live in Sunny Malta Europe. For the last couple of months, I've been watching a lot of DIY videos including 123TOID and finally I made the courage to build my first set of speakers (LCR). I studied Telecommunication and Electronics 15 years ago and now I'm a Senior Network Engineer. I've been always a fan of home cinema and I always purchased speakers. Now I came to upgrade my Front Gold Monitor Audio speakers, but I decided not to spend all that money on something that i could build and could gain something more with less.

 

So, I’m currently planning my new L R speakers. (Centre to be planned after the result of the L R). And here is the big thing... I've been playing with WINISD and XSIM for quite some time now but now i think i homed on 2 possible builds.

 

 After seeing 123toid interview with regards to the Dayton NEW EPIQUE Drivers I was thinking of building a 2 way with the Dayton E180HE-44 but I’m concerned with the sensitivity of the diver with regards to the lower midrange and midrange (250hz -2khz), most movies dialogue falls within that range so this raised a concern. Even if I place 2 drivers still the sensitivity would be on the low part.  What are your thoughts about it ? Would considering a 3 way with faital pro 6FE200 be better? But if I go for a 3 way would the Dayton E180HE-44 still make sense? Or Else I would be better to build a tower with the Cinema 6 Components and crossover and add an Ultimax UM8-22 8" ? and use an active DSP between the Cinema 6 Build and the Ultimax ? These are the questions that are coming to mind currently and i'm abit lost / confused. The Idea is to have them in a tower design, I already purchased 2 Inuke 1000DSP for these to be able to drive them.

Other option would be to go for MMTMM design with the 8FE200, but I would like to have the towers capable of going lower then 80hz.

 

Another question I have in mind Is that currently I have Ribbon Tweeters in my monitor audio which are cable to produce a linear response to 35khz. Knowing that the ear cant detect greater then 20KHZ if what I build doesn't reach 40KHZ would i be able to see the difference? As Obliviously I would like to do this project to upgrade and not downgrade 🙂

 

Looking forward to hearing any ideas and areas to explore as I would like to get this over with, and start working on it.

 

Thanks,

Regards,

TeT


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Chedwin
(@chedwin)
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@tet I’m not the person to answer the first part of your questions but I can help with the ribbon tweeter frequency range part as I have background in psychoacoustics research from my degree dissertation 

 

the ear only able to detect up to 20khz, whilst a good general rule of thumb, is only partly true. Although 20khz is the roughly the highest frequency that’s audible to humans some studies show that much higher frequencies can still be detected by the inner ear even if not ‘heard’ in the traditional sense

these ultra sonic frequencies can still cause physiological reactions from the inner ear so despite not knowing we are hearing them they can add additional psychoacoustic enhancements to a music listening experience 

a good example of this is listening to orchestral recordings vs a live orchestra performance. In the real world all instruments have resonances and harmonics both in and out of the audible hearing range, this goes into both infra sonic and ultra sonic frequencies. Particularly high string instruments like violins and metallic instruments like brass sections and percussion cymbals have many harmonics in the ultra sonic range that can be measured with calibrated spectrum analysers. 

These add to the experience of hearing the music performed live in front of you that can be lacking if listening back to recordings where everything above 20khz is cut out of the recording and/or the speaker playback.

 

from an electroacoustic perspective there are also potential benefits to playing up to 30khz-35khz or even above.

The higher above the limit of human audible hearing a driver can play the cleaner with less distortion it should sound when producing 18khz-20khz. This can result in the same piece of music sounding more soft, airy and open specially on ribbon tweeter playing to >35khz than a silk dome that stops around 22khz for example. 

Josh Evans
- Professional Live Sound Engineer
- High End Commercial AV Install Technician


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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Topic starter  

@chedwin Thats some good insight and information 🙂 The million dollar question now 🙂 What's the best tweeter combination I could go to ? I did see some people going for the Peerless DA32TX00-08 1-1/4" and i've also seen a good combination of the Dayton Audio AMTPRO-4 AMT Tweeter with the Dayton Audio AMT2-4, but the Dayton Audio AMT2-4 has an upper frequency range of only 22kHz. Also some people also experimented with DS18 Bullet super tweeters but the data to inport in xsim is limited. 🙁

 


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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Any Help with on how to best go around this ?  


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Chedwin
(@chedwin)
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@tet When it comes to specific drivers Im not much use. I work with pro audio speakers that are bought as is from manufacturers so dont do any driver selection or comparision.

@123toid should be able to help with that

Josh Evans
- Professional Live Sound Engineer
- High End Commercial AV Install Technician


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123Toid
(@123toid)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1719
 

@tet 

Honestly the E180HE-44 has a few things going for it. The first is baffle step built-in, making the crossover cheaper and second is the low end extension.  Having said that, the one thing it does not have going for it is it's sensitivity. They remind me a lot of the Tang Band W8 that I used in the Uglies.  Which where around 82-85db once you added in the baffle step.  These will still be lower, closer to 80db.  However, you will be using two of these.  Assuming you wire these for a 4ohm load, you will gain about 6db.  Meaning your sensitivity will be closer to 86db. So it won't be nearly as bad as you think. 

Having said all of that, I never felt like the Uglies needed more power, and typically just powered them off a surround sound receiver. I haven't use the E180HE-44, so I can't speak directly about them, but it does appear to have the power handling and excursion to be just fine in a home theater application.  I know the Uglies were. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/123toid


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ElliottDesigns
(@elliottdesigns)
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Welcome to the community! I actually lived in Malta for 3 years. Left not long after the new buses came, so that was quite a while back now. If you really want to go all out, which it's seeming like you are, I'd highly recommend adding DSP, whether custom or something from miniDSP. Getting a good in room power response measurement and correcting for it for the Harmon curve does wonders for any speaker I find. Often because it helps fix (even if only partially) many problems with your in room sound that you get from your room, even a sufficiently damped one. If you do go that way with pre-processing the signal, just remember to use lots and lots of averaged measurements, either that or the moving mic method, moving mic method is great if you don't have the time, but if you don't have a particularly quiet room or can't turn your speakers up too loud for the period pink noise, then lots of separate measurements might be a good alternative 😉

Elliott Dyson - Mechanical Engineering Student and 3D printing & Design Freelancer


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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@123toid

I think i settled for the Cinema 6 and purchased the plans yesterday. Having said that i need to modify the cabinet abit as I'm still at the phase of constructing my cinema room (plans finally got approved), so typically this would be ready close to end of year 2022 because it needs to be build with bricks :-(, so i need to place the build in my living room to replace the Monitor Audio Gold speakers.  My concern is abit about the high frequency range. So technically the cinema 6 go to around about 18Khz whilst my current setup would got to 40Khz, the question is would  the ear actually hear the difference ?  Would this be considered as an upgrade or downgrade (i personally think upgrade)? At this point i think i would add a woofer which would help 30hz to 300hz and have the cinema 6 to take over from 300hz. (I currently have 2 x SVS PC2000 i the room) but I would like to have a good full range speaker. As woofer was considering the following 2 x Epique  E180HE-44, 1 x Ultimax 8" or 1 x MAX X 10". What do you suggest?  

@ElliottDesigns 

WoW 3 years  I'm assuming not on holiday :-), Believe me that the old buses where something that now a days we miss. When comparing to todays system they were more efficient believe it or not. Any plans to return back on the island ? Un fortunately home cinemas here in Malta is lacking. People are happy with a sound bar or else as a huge upgrade they buy a bose setup. 

 

So the Idea is to have 2 x inuke 1000 DSP to power the L and R  ... Having 1 channel for the low frequencies say 30hz - 300hz or 150hz, and the rest to power the same concepts of the Cinema 6. I shall be using the INUKE not the minidsp for the reason that the inuke 1000 is a 2 channel amplifier and if i have to use a minidsp or something equivalent I would need 3 channels for the 3 way.  If I'm missing something please let me know.  

 

I currently have minidsp between my SVS woofers. So have some experience with them. But was thinking to use the DSP on the inuke them self's.  


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GrumpE1
(@grumpe1)
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"cinema 6 go to around about 18Khz whilst my current setup would got to 40Khz, the question is would the ear actually hear the difference"

This question, along with sub audible bass (<20hz), makes for wonderful forum threads and folk can get passionate on the subject. Having just had a hearing test done... my hearing doesn't go anywhere near 20KHz. This is the case for many of us, and even if you're young with fresh ears... for movie sound tracks: 18KHZ is fine! IMO. If you want to enhance your movie experience, look to the low end... depending on the size of your cinema room, two more subs. It's the chest thump, room resonating vibrations of the engines, explosions, waves and such that dramatically effect your movie experience.

"...add a woofer which would help 30hz to 300hz... cinema 6 to take over from 300hz"

Cinima 6 keeps to the THX standard of 80hz for LCR speakers, and adding a woofer is to make a very different speaker. They are very good as is, and when accompanies by good subs... the entire range is well covered.

Perhaps consider building full range speakers as a second project... if the room is to double as a listening room. If there's to be movies & listening, then there are compromises to be made in the speaker layout because what is ideal for one won't be ideal for the other.

You mention the build going into the living room, but I didn't follow if that is temporary pending completion of the cinema room. Is your cinema room to be dedicated to movies, or double as a listening room as well?


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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@grumpe1 

 

Yes it's temporary, but its 1 year or more. The Cinema  room shall be more of an entertaining room. With proper room treatment but due to space restrictions we increased the size of the new room to be used as an good entertainment room. 

 

Yes I know that Cinema 6 is abiding THX standards but as first build I wanted something with a full range spectrum. I've been eyeing on the Faital Pro 6FE200 and 8FE200 for the last couple of months.  And from what I've seen and read this speaker is a very good midrange driver. I bought the cinema 6 plans for this simple reason. Only issue I have with the plan builds is the shape of the enclosure because I need need them to purely vertical for the LR and horizontal for center. 


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Chedwin
(@chedwin)
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My concern is abit about the high frequency range. So technically the cinema 6 go to around about 18Khz whilst my current setup would got to 40Khz, the question is would  the ear actually hear the difference ? 

@tet If youd never had speakers that go above 20khz it would be an easy decision to make, 18khz as the max limit would be fine.

As you already have 40khz speakers there is a chance you ears will pick up the difference in harmonic distortion from around 17khz and above

Unfortunately the only way to find out if the reduced high frequency extension is going to be a problem for you is to hear the new option(s) in person. If you are not able to demo the driver first you'll have to just commit and find out after its built

Josh Evans
- Professional Live Sound Engineer
- High End Commercial AV Install Technician


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GrumpE1
(@grumpe1)
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"...wanted something with a full range spectrum"

I appreciate that, but you won't have a Cinema 6. Those plans, the speakers and cross over maintain the THX standard. Once you introduce a woofer, and make it three way... you've created an entirely different speaker. Anyway, you know what you want to build and your not the first to ask about adding a woofer. Page 12, part way down, you'll see a post by chewbrocolli... he built v1, but changed the shape of the boxes. The same volume, so the same crossover.... see his pics and read over what he and Toid talk about... it might be of interest for what you're wanting to do.

https://toidsdiyaudio.com/community/diy-speakers-diy-speakers/3500-speakers-for-350-klipsch-kl-650-clones/paged/12/


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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@grumpe1 

 

Yeap, something on those lines. That's the idea. I need to arrive to the conclusion soon so that I would have them ready by the Holiday Season .  Now the issue that I encountered is with the wave guide the Eminence H290B i'm not able to find them available.  🙁  

 

@123Toid any ideas what I could use as a wave guide.  I found this Horn B&C Speakers ME45, 1.0 inch Would that Do ? I'm using https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/ and https://www.soundimports.eu/ Can't use parts express because of the VAT and Import Duty. 


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ElliottDesigns
(@elliottdesigns)
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@tet Download (and maybe watch some videos on) hornresp. It's a great program for designing simple horns and might suit your needs, I just use it for transmission line enclosure design.

Otherwise akabak is a very capable program, but also a LOT more complicated. Their "student" version is available for anyone that isn't going to be using their designs to make money in any way.

Edit: just realised you were talking about buying waveguides not making them. The programs I mentioned still apply though since you can try modelling them and seeing what they do to the responses.

Elliott Dyson - Mechanical Engineering Student and 3D printing & Design Freelancer


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TeT
 TeT
(@tet)
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@elliottdesigns Thanks, Do you have any feedback on the above query with regards to the DSP ? 


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