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Are you a Subjectivist or an Objectivist?  

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20/06/2019 1:49 pm  
Posted by: JonnyAudio

What you saying make no difference to the sound or the charging of the circuit, are still believing your "spice" program telling you things that do not exist - next thing you will be telling me is that Zenner diodes produce "shot noise" in a voltage regulator circuit.

Did you know that a regulated power supply using Voltage Regulation only needs half the recommended capacitance & charges the caps up, so you would hardly know since the voltage is not changing there is no current needed in the form of ripple.

I got theory right years ago & sounds like you are the one quoting theory to me.

MILLIONS of people use Spice to help in prototyping equipment, every day. Some of the best audio gear starts off on Spice. Do you really want to tell all these people they're wrong?

OK. Then I guess we have nothing further to say to one another.

I came here to share 30 years of experience both in repair and design. I didn't come here to get into a wigger wagging contest... and I'm not going to.

 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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20/06/2019 10:12 pm  

Circling back around to the beginning of this thread.

To truly excel in something, you must explore all facets of that particular "thing". The athlete not only strength and agility trains, he also studies the game, learns the strategy and psychology involved in producing winning results.

The speaker designer chooses a driver and uses the T/S parameters to design an enclosure only to measure and then listen in order to tweak it to "perfect" the enclosure. Same thing with the crossover, design it with math and tweak via instrument measurements and relying on your ears to verify the changes either improved or degraded the results. 

Amplifiers, while they may sound good initially, they might be oscillating in ultrasonic or even RF ranges, things no human can hear, yet can be viewed via any decent oscilloscope. Many times this can be fixed via the addition of a bypass cap or board redesign, but left alone can cause reduced efficiency or the hastened degradation of components, either in the amp or at the end of the chain, possibly even affecting devices not even connected or related to the amp.

For me, I enjoy the technical side of things quite a bit, but realize that there is more to our hobby / passion than just the science. There are times when the artful side plays a good sized role in forming the finished product. And sometimes, that art leads to a new understanding of the science you thought you knew so well.

 

I must close this with a quote from a favorite author you might have heard of, Stephen King:

If you choose to not see the other side of their views, "You have forgotten the face of your father." 

I will let "you" interpret what that means.

I look forward to open, honest, and civil discussions on many topics.

-Charlie


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20/06/2019 10:26 pm  

"Circling back around.to the beginning of this thread."

Yes, please ... and well said.

 


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29/06/2019 12:14 pm  

@tvor-ceasar

Sorry for not writing a more comprehensive reply earlier. I was mid-project and didn't have a lot of time.

Yes I agree it always starts with science. We use various techniques to verify our first thoughts on a new idea and as it progresses we tend to move slowly from the objective to the subjective as we refine and tweak the work. I can't imagine any audio designer who doesn't listen and building a modern-ish system without some reliance on spec sheets, test instruments and even computer modelling sounds like a fools errand, doomed to mediocre results.

The thing is, I find it rather curious that so many people now claim to ignore the published data and go simply on their hearing, subjectivity taken to the point of decrying the use of specifications and even product pamphlets. They seem convinced their ears are good enough and often I see this tripping them up... and they don't seem to realize it.

One of my pet peeves, especially in the "High End Audio" segment is the way companies prey upon the uninformed. "This RCA cord will open up your sound stage and greatly improve your midrange clarity", and they lap it up. But the scientist in me knows that is utterly impossible. It's a piece of wire, it can't do that. Even though they claim to hear the result, it actually defies the laws of physics. 

This of course brings up the discussion about confirmation bias and self-deception, which seems to be at the heart of the Subjectivist movement.  No science, no proof, just what they think they are hearing and huge amounts of money spent on nothing.

One person presented the reasoning that: "If I spend $10,000 on an amplifier it only makes sense to spend $2,000 on cables" ... On what planet does either expense make any sense?  

Another argued that: "When I replaced the power cord I got much better midrange sound" ... again an impossibility. Power starvation almost always emanates as a loss of bass or general clarity, never as changes in a narrow mid-portion of the audio range. To think that a power cord can target specific qualities of sound, once again defies the laws of physics.  Yet this person is absolutely certain of what he heard.

When I look at the products these guys are using I am often astonished at the bad practices and even unsafe construction I see.  Many of these high end cables are only grounded at one end. Some are not even shielded. Some have fancy little do-dads added that are supposed to make a difference. Some of this stuff is so heavy that it breaks the connectors on the equipment. And people are spending thousands of dollars to get it...

Almost always when doing a service call I would give my clients a better sounding system by pulling all that crap out and reverting the system back to standard cables, correctly built according to sound and safe practices.

I will grant that most audio equipment these days easily falls into the HiFi catagory --wide frequency response, low distortion, low noise, etc-- and often times listening does carry the ball.  It is possible to select audio equipment and get a very good system by simply choosing features, without ever once looking at the specs.  But it is just as easy to rip someone off that way.

For example:

The audible difference between a Senucn A-502 and a PS Audio Sprout is trivial, so the subjectivists ears would not disappoint them, except that the A-502 is $75 (cdn) and the Sprout is $900 (cdn).  

The same can be said for Nick's DIY stereo amp and the PS Audio Stellar amps.  His is $300 the PSA unit is $2000. In this case the similarity is not an accident... they both use the same ICE power modules.

I always try to give my friends and their friends the best Bang for their Buck and when I encounter one who is a total subjectivist that fails because almost always they will choose the more expensive unit without even considering the science or the guts of their choices.

This is why I don't think you can successfully do one side without the other... it takes both good ears and at least a cursory understanding of the technology, even when putting together a basic home system.

 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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30/06/2019 2:56 pm  

Will reply after done work. Have several points to make. Catch you in a few hours. 

-Charlie


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30/06/2019 6:44 pm  
Posted by: TVOR-Ceasar

Will reply after done work. Have several points to make. Catch you in a few hours. 

Sounds good....


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TVOR-Ceasar
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05/07/2019 2:29 am  

Well, it's definitely been a few hours.

The office got hit by a nasty locker virus and we've been scrambling to get all back to normal, which we are now close. Sucks, but what are you going to do...

Anywho, I don't know if I'll recall all the points I wanted to touch upon, but here goes -

Relying on just your senses to completely guide you is like relying on just the word of the fortune teller to guide your life. Neither gets you to anywhere near where you should be, and it opens you up to the charlatans who want to make you light (in the pocket) and happy (ignorant). This world is chock full of "end users" who know that if they press A, then B happens. They don't know why it happens, only that it does. And when A breaks, they are S.O.L.

Knowing how things work, or even just having the most basic knowledge on certain things allows one to separate out the wheat from the chaff. In simple terms, it allows you to see what may have validity as opposed to what is marketing BS. Case in point: the reason most given to use Cable Elevators is to reduce capacitance on the speaker lines when they lay on the floor. Knowing how capacitance works and how to make a capacitor, you realize that the only capacitance to worry about is what the actual speaker wire creates upon itself - which won't be altered by moving it around in 3d space. Could there be some capacitance between the wire and the floor? My question to that is "Where is the other conductor on the other side of the floor?" And if there could be, by some quirk of magic, capacitance formed by that orientation, it would be so miniscule that it would only affect frequencies well above the microwave range. Now if you have a power line running right under the floor, maybe, just maybe you can pick up some hum. In that case, the Law of Inverse Squares comes into play. (for those who don't know, just use Google, please) And really, you could do some grounded shielding in that area to minimize hum where the wires cross paths. Gotta love Faraday.

What's really funny is that most recording studios, while they do spend decent money on equipment, still use what most Subjectivist Audiophiles would puke over having in their system. The computer power cords are the ones that came with them, the XLR cables are all over the place and then bundled into a snake to get to the mixer, computers very near preamps and other low signal level boards, vintage tube amps that when they don't have anything plugged into them are dead quiet (all with point to point wiring yet!), USB cords, that only cost $10-$20...

And speaking of USB / digital chain, well, look for my comment (TheTrueVoiceOfReason) on PS Audio's YouTube video titled "Finding a good USB source for music" published on May 9, 2018.

Power cables. The 2 things you have to be most concerned with are: 1. is the gauge heavy enough to carry the current required with safety factor added? and 2. are the plugs well made / able to be secure in their respective sockets so as to not cause mechanical source noise? Are these things worth $100, $200, $1500? Okay, I've seen medical grade IEC cords go for close to $100, and most of that is in the special latching plugs on either end. Other than that, $20 is about as high as I'd go for a normal cord, if I didn't have one on hand already.

That's it for tonight. Hope all the US people had a good Independence day, and the rest of the world had a good Thursday.

-Charlie


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05/07/2019 7:49 am  
Posted by: TVOR-Ceasar

Well, it's definitely been a few hours.

Indeed ... good thing there's no hurry 😎 

Relying on just your senses to completely guide you is like relying on just the word of the fortune teller to guide your life. Neither gets you to anywhere near where you should be, and it opens you up to the charlatans who want to make you light (in the pocket) and happy (ignorant). This world is chock full of "end users" who know that if they press A, then B happens. They don't know why it happens, only that it does. And when A breaks, they are S.O.L.

I've seen that more than once.  There is a general loss of technical acumen going on, pretty much society wide. I've seen articles saying that something like 80% of all PCs and smartphones are being used entirely on default settings. Home theatre gear is no different, most of it just gets plugged in, hooked up and used. One of my clients even got rather antsy and asked me to stop when I went into his router to enable the firewall. These are, by and large, people who don't know and don't want to know how to get the best from their systems.

Back in my first go at audiophilia in the late 1970s some of the conversations were truly educational and challenging. We discussed bias points, gain, frequency response, power supply requirements and the other guys in the coffee klatch knew as much as I did, or more. When I came back to my love of music about 5 years ago the entire community had fallen all the way down to "You push this button and music comes out".  Not good.

Knowing how things work, or even just having the most basic knowledge on certain things allows one to separate out the wheat from the chaff. In simple terms, it allows you to see what may have validity as opposed to what is marketing BS.

I've been saying this for years ... Even the first hint of real technical understanding could/should/would save people thousands of dollars. I think that's why this whole snake oil cable thing galls me so badly... even a little common sense should stop it dead in it's tracks.

Case in point: the reason most given to use Cable Elevators is to reduce capacitance on the speaker lines when they lay on the floor. Knowing how capacitance works and how to make a capacitor, you realize that the only capacitance to worry about is what the actual speaker wire creates upon itself - which won't be altered by moving it around in 3d space.

Analog cables are not a mystery. Audio signalling is some of the easiest electronics there is. All the real baddies are, way off in RF land. Any real tech insight would tell them that...

And speaking of USB / digital chain, well, look for my comment (TheTrueVoiceOfReason) on PS Audio's YouTube video titled "Finding a good USB source for music" published on May 9, 2018.

And mine in several of Paul's videos as well. The whole problem appears to be that they don't understand how digital signalling works and just go ahead and treat it like the audio signalling they also don't understand.

Power cables. The 2 things you have to be most concerned with are: 1. is the gauge heavy enough to carry the current required with safety factor added? and 2. are the plugs well made / able to be secure in their respective sockets so as to not cause mechanical source noise? Are these things worth $100, $200, $1500? Okay, I've seen medical grade IEC cords go for close to $100, and most of that is in the special latching plugs on either end. Other than that, $20 is about as high as I'd go for a normal cord, if I didn't have one on hand already.

Take a look at the recent Regenerator question Paul took. Two days ago?  I think you'll find some of the comments in there to be utterly laughable... especially the guys citing showroom demos as a source of technical knowledge. It leaves me to wonder just how easily these guys can be victimized... P. T. Barnum was definitely right!

Once again... we seem to be concluding that you need both the subjective and objective, working hand in hand. I just can't see how you could separate the two without, at some point, blowing something up.

 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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05/07/2019 10:18 am  
Posted by: Douglas Blake

 

Take a look at the recent Regenerator question Paul took. Two days ago?  I think you'll find some of the comments in there to be utterly laughable... especially the guys citing showroom demos as a source of technical knowledge. It leaves me to wonder just how easily these guys can be victimized... P. T. Barnum was definitely right!

 

Amazing that knowing the difference between AC and DC and how the power grid works shoots down certain products. Now, there could be an actual voltage between Neutral and Ground if their connections are poor, but it would be in AC, not DC.

Hey, if they want to throw away good money, they can throw it my way. 😉 

-Charlie


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05/07/2019 10:40 am  
Posted by: TVOR-Ceasar
Amazing that knowing the difference between AC and DC and how the power grid works shoots down certain products. Now, there could be an actual voltage between Neutral and Ground if their connections are poor, but it would be in AC, not DC.

Hey, if they want to throw away good money, they can throw it my way. 😉 

Maybe it's my experience in service and service management... but what amazes me is how people can get all the way to mature adulthood without developing an immunity to scams, especially, in an area where they profess some degree of knowledge. 

"Trust me, everything is okay" ... says the fox guarding the hen house.

 


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TVOR-Ceasar
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06/07/2019 11:18 pm  
Posted by: Douglas Blake
 "... especially the guys citing showroom demos as a source of technical knowledge."

Showroom guys - the reason I stopped going to the hifi shops back in the day. I stopped in to look at what they had and I was interested in a nice pair of 3-way Yamaha speakers with, I think, 12" woofers. The dude there wouldn't let me audition them by myself, and insisted I AB them against some Bose bookshelf units, don't remember which ones. Anyway, while standing there listening, I glanced over and saw that he would run the Bose up, but turn the Yamaha down. That's when I really decided I'd have to do my best own designs. Never looked back. 

-Charlie


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07/07/2019 3:19 am  
Posted by: TVOR-Ceasae
Showroom guys - the reason I stopped going to the hifi shops back in the day. I stopped in to look at what they had and I was interested in a nice pair of 3-way Yamaha speakers with, I think, 12" woofers. The dude there would let me audition them by myself, and insisted I AB them against some Bose bookshelf units, don't remember which ones. Anyway, while standing there listening, I glanced over and saw that he would run the Bose up, but turn the Yamaha down. That's when I really decided I'd have to do my best own designs. Never looked back. 

I got pushed in that direction by a know it all brother in law. In 1976, I'm about 4 years into a career as an electronics tech, he's just getting started and the little shit has the nerve to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Two years later he's sitting in my living room looking at a DIY build of a complete stereo system... pre-amp, amp, speakers, even the shelving.  Then he has the nerve to tell me his Marantz is better, so I just reached over and cranked up a couple of EQ bands and let him hear the dishes in the kitchen rattling ... he never challenged me again, after that.

Me in 1979...

 


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