Home Forums DIY Speakers and Subwoofers $3500 Speakers for $350? Klipsch KL-650 Inspiration

  • $3500 Speakers for $350? Klipsch KL-650 Inspiration

     123toid updated 1 week, 5 days ago 71 Members · 711 Posts
  • mupp3t

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 3:31 pm

    I mean the diameter & height of the edge, where you physically mount the drivers/horn.

    So that the drivers are aligned with the outer box.

  • jgs5607

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 8:02 pm

    The attached photo has the drawing of the bass drivers.

    I had a circle jig to create the recess, If I recall, I made the diameter 6.75″ to have some clearance. I used a .5″ dia straight cut router bit; since I would need a land area of .5″ and I oversized the large diameter for clearance I indexed to create a smaller diameter and had a wider land area than required.

    I made the depth of the recess .4″ as the 8mm thickness on the drawing does not include the inner gasket thickness.

    The final step was to use a 1/4″ spiral upcut bit to create the through hole which I made 5.7″ dia.

    I used Pi’s H290C waveguide instead of the Eminence H290B and I created a template tracing the outer shape on to a 3/4″ thick MDF sheet and cutting it out with a jigsaw ( and did some sanding to smooth things out. Then I used a top bearing straight cutter to trace the pattern for the recess. The land area for the horn is assymetrical; 1″ on the long sides and .5″ on the short side. The through hole was cut out with a jigsaw. I do not recall the depth of the recess to the flange; the Pi flange is a bit thicker than the Eminence, so what I did there will not help.

    Hope some of this has some value to you.

  • jgs5607

    Member
    February 28, 2022 at 6:14 am

    After a few weeks of carefully evaluating my Cinema 6 build, I changed my mind about temporarily using it as the Center in my existing HT setup.

    I decided to move up my plan to use it with my JBL 590’s and make a second HT system in the house.

    After doing careful AB testing where I could instantly change from one to the other instantly instead of using the 6 in combination with the 590 to make a stereo pair, there is no doubt about my initial impression that the Cinema 6 sounded cleaner.

    Initially I thought that the more limited dispersion of the horn in the 6 than the horn in the 590 took more of the room out of the equation being a big contributor. In reality, with the AB testing it became clear that the 6 is hands down a higher resolution speaker than the 590; the difference was not subtle testing in those conditions.

    Sounds like fingers slipping off the strings of an acoustic guitar, the tone and rasp of various brass instruments, and the initial hammer strike on a piano string were clearly heard without having to concentrate, they were just apparent but without the harshness that some more detailed speakers can have. You could hear those things on the JBL if you focused, but they were smoothed over ( or smeared?) ; they just did not sound as real.

    So I bought another AVR and am selling the integrated amp I was using; brought up a pair of JBL Studio S36’s I had out of the basement ( voicing is pretty much the same; flat response profile). I also made a grill for the Cinema 6 for WAF reasons, and now just need to get another TV to finish things up. I have one I could use temporarily, but it would be dwarfed by the size of the front speakers, so I am not going there.

    The Cinema 6 will be above the screen to be closer to the plane of the tweeters in the towers, so I don’t want to rig up something temporary.

    Wide angle view of the setup today shown below.

    I highly recommend this build to anyone for HT or Music use ( with a Sub). I have posted results and impressions on the JBL Studio 5 forum at AVS since finding a Center that works with the larger towers in the series is always an ongoing quest. If you can live with the form factor, I can’t think of anything better.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  123toid. Reason: added a link to the forum post
  • 123toid

    Administrator
    February 28, 2022 at 11:43 pm

    @jgs5607 That is awesome to hear! I am so glad you are enjoying them. The clarity of those are the reason I really love them as well. Still going strong as my front soundstage. I am really happy to hear they do so well with the JBL. Now I can’t wait to see the final pictures of the room! (whenever that may be).

    P.S. the phase issue you were talking about can also be caused by room acoustics at the listening position. In this case where the microphone was. A fact that doesn’t really get talked about much.


    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  123toid.

    $3500 Speakers for $350? Klipsch KL-650 Inspiration

  • jgs5607

    Member
    March 13, 2022 at 4:44 pm

    Things came together better than my initial plan. The TV console I bought to put the TV on was supposed to ship this coming Wednesday ( TV delivery was on Friday). By luck, it came a week early, so I had time to assemble it before the TV got here.

    Then the pacing item became a stand to elevate the Cinema 6 center above the TV; I did not want to start that until I had the TV on the stand and got the exact height to put the platform for the center.

    I had to design and build it; the speaker is partially cantelevered from the uprights, so it had to be real strong, since the Center is somewhat of a beast. It had been on a stool temporarily, so the size really did not register until I temporarily set it on on my Sub 550p.

    IT’S BIG!! (pic below)

    Anyway, it all came together as planned. There is 1/4″ gap between the platform and the top of the screen. The platform is radiused to try to reduce diffraction. I did invert the the speaker to put the waveguide on the bottom, and it is angled down to aim the acoustic center axis at ear level (laser guided by Bosch). The voices are really tied to the screen pretty well with this setup. Here is how it turned out. ( pic below)

    I really like the elevated soundstage.The LCR’s in the Great room HT system are all above ear level and aimed down so after 16 years, I am used to that and prefer it.

    Next steps are to recalibrate everything with the relocated Subwoofer and Center locations .

    I did a lot of REW runs last week to test alternate locations. I got one that works pretty well before EQ for all 3 seats on the couch. There was one position that had an overall flatter response, but only for 2 of the 3 spots, the right hand seat had a -20db null from 50 to 70Hz, the curse of small room acoustics.

  • joostb

    Member
    April 2, 2022 at 1:27 am

    i cant get <b itemprop=”name” style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”>Dayton Audio 0.22mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor Crossover Coil in europe. can i switch it for something else?

    • jgs5607

      Member
      April 2, 2022 at 4:34 am

      Any inductor of the same value and similar value of DCR ( DC resistance) will work; the same AWG will help with the latter.

      ERSE and JANTZEN both have inductors of that value with DCR’s of .19 and .21 ohms ( vs .22 for the Dayton) and will work well as a substitute.

  • marcoruiz

    Member
    April 5, 2022 at 5:09 pm

    Very nice project, What would you think about use FaitalPRO 8FE200 8″, instead of FaitalPRO 6FE200 6″ ?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  marcoruiz.
    • 123toid

      Administrator
      April 6, 2022 at 12:48 am

      If you want to remake the crossover, you could use those. Ideally, that box would be significantly bigger than this to get a flat response.


    • marcoruiz

      Member
      April 6, 2022 at 3:07 pm

      Thanks for the feedback, in my little understanding I thought that the current crossover would work without changes since the response are a little bit similar, but with more bass.

      Other idea that I have is, redesign the box maitaining the volume and port tuning but in a column array (I have a space constrain so I´m looking for column design).

      In your opinion what would be better for left + righ + center in a home theater setup, ¿TMM or a MTM? (usin a squate horn: B&C ME60 2″ Constant Directivity Horn 60×40)

      Thank you!

    • jgs5607

      Member
      April 6, 2022 at 6:15 am

      If you go that route and plan on setting up the horn horizontally for wide dispersion, you may want to reconsider the form factor since you will need a bigger cabinet and will have to re do the crossover anyway. Going to a MTM ( full tower or big stand mount) might work out better giving wide horizontal and narrower vertical dispersion more closely matching the horn’s radiation pattern.

      Just looking at the picture of the Cinema 6 alone does not give you a perspective of the size and scale of the speaker. I slightly modded the aspect ratio of the front to be able to fit it in the entertainment center for my Great Room HT with the intent of using it in my Loft system later, taking it from a 2.1 music system to a second HT system. It turned out so well that I greatly sped up my timeline.

      Look at my post above on this page showing pictures of it sitting on top of a JBL Sub550p and in its final position above a 65″ TV ( I am only using it as a Center). Now imagine it at least 25% wider and 15% taller!

      In a MTM configuration, it would be closer looking to the JBL towers in the pictures which also uses 8″ woofers and a similar width horn. That form factor may be easier to accomodate; think of it as a ” mini me ” version of the Audience 212 Nick just built.

      Food for thought since you would have to rework the crossover in any case.

    • marcoruiz

      Member
      April 6, 2022 at 8:46 pm

      Nice ideas and recomendations! Exactly as you mention, a “mini mi” version of the Audience 212, with 2×8″ faital woofers and a square horn in a MTM configuration would be a great variation of this design.

      Look at this ones as an inspiration:

    • jgs5607

      Member
      April 6, 2022 at 10:04 pm

      The ME60 you mentioned is for a 2″ driver; the DE250 is a 1″ driver so you would need some kind of adapter to make that work.

      Within the B& C line, the ME20 ( square) and ME45 ( rectangular) would match up. The ME45 can load down to a lower frequency, so that might be a better bet with the 8″ driver and it would also reduce the center to center spacing which is also a benefit. If you would go the rectangular route, stick with the H290 since the high pass part of the crossover could probably be used as is.

      A different driver/ horn combination will be a start from scratch proposition for the crossover.

      The impedance curves from 900Hz to 4KHz ( crossover zone) look pretty similar in value for the 4 ohm 6″ and 4 ohm 8″ drivers, so the low pass part of the crossover may also work pretty well as is.

      Should be a fun project for you.

  • 123toid

    Administrator
    April 6, 2022 at 10:58 pm

    As @jgs5607 has said any change to the design (drivers, arrangement, etc) will change the crossover. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing. You will just need something like the omnimic or umik-1 along with DATS to get started on designing your own crossover. It might be a good idea to check to make sure all the parts will work together. You will need a 1″ horn with 2/3 bolt pattern. I was just modeling the 8″ version not too long ago and it wanted something like a 4 cubic foot box for two drivers to be ported fairly flat. That might be problematic depending on the box size you want to design.


    • minimins

      Member
      April 29, 2022 at 3:02 pm

      Have you heard of anyone testing these against or running them in tandem with original KL650’s?

      I have a pair that are set up in 2.1 with a sub and sound amazing. But I want to complete the setup with a center channel and surrounds and would prefer going DIY over buying 1-3 more for all the obvious reasons.

      Curious how they compare with the originals and if they will work well together.

      I’m thinking for sure the v2 for the center channel to spread the sound stage a bit more than choosing a L or R channel as the center as Klipsch seems to suggest.

      I’m still debating about the surrounds though. I’ve read on KL650 threads that they suggest going all the way around with them, but I was thinking possibly going with the Cinema 10 plans for the surrounds.

      Any thoughts on that?

      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  minimins.
  • jgs5607

    Member
    April 29, 2022 at 4:39 pm

    I have not heard them side by side. I did hear a full Klipsch THX system a few years back with 650’s for LCR, the 525’s for surrounds and 2 of the matching 12″ subs. The sound was excellent and the LCR’s were neutral ( they could easily be used as a studio monitor )

    Having heard both the Classis series and Reference series in the past, my initial reaction was ” these can’t really be Klipsch”; they are that different from the rest of their family.

    The Cinema 6 is neutral and should match up well, in my opinion. I think they are a bit directional for surrounds unless you can get some distance away from them.

    • minimins

      Member
      May 2, 2022 at 3:01 pm

      Unfortunately distance is going to be closer than optimal for the surrounds due to limited placement options.

      I know this thread is for the Cinema 6s, but do you think the 10s are equally ‘neutral’ and a better option as a surround?

    • 123toid

      Administrator
      May 3, 2022 at 1:08 pm

      The Cinema 10 are tuned similar and are designed originally for surround usage. They really are perfect for surrounds


  • jgs5607

    Member
    May 11, 2022 at 7:54 am

    Nick, I have a crossover question on the Cinema 6.

    I did do some mods that lowered the DCR of the low pass, so I changed the shunt resistor of the L Pad to raise the output to match ( and also put in a compensation cap to flatten the response to match my JBL’s)

    I changed all my resistors to Dayton’s 20W wirewound, just for margin. When I looked at one of your old XSIM tutorials, you showed other thjngs you can do with it ( first time I used XSIM was for this project) like model the power dissapation of the various components.

    Having an EE background, I know the series leg of the L Pad is taking the brunt of the power because of the attenuation level and XSIM bore that out with that was dissapating 18+ watts of the 20 watt input.

    So my question, why is it typical to use lower rated resistors in crossovers for the tweeter circuits ( my JBL’s also use low wattage components and they are rated for ovef 200W)

    Is it because of the duty cycle being non continuous, or not having much energy at the higher frequencies? Having done a lot of crossover designs, I wonder if you know what the thought process is. Thanks.

    PS: I know Wayne at Pi speakers uses 40W ( series/ parallel 10W resistors) for this same driver / waveguide combo, but I assume that is because the 15″ prosound woofer in his 4 Pi is rated at 800W RMS power handling.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  jgs5607.
    • 123toid

      Administrator
      May 12, 2022 at 10:53 pm

      You are correct with your assumptions. Keep in mind we are using this for Home theater where you will rarely if ever need that type of power and should not need it continuous. However, if you were building these for PA use then you would want to increase it.


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