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All right guys here’s some teaser pics of the flat back that I built for the Cinema 10. I have some other pictures of them completed, I just don’t have them on hand. I’ll try to update this later.
Get the Plans: https://toidsdiyaudio.com/product/cinema-10-speaker-plans/
Build Video:
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I believe the Dayton Audio MB1025-8 10″ Professional High Power driver might be a great alternative to using the Celestion. It has the same usable sensitivity of 96db but 50% better XMAX and in a 1 FT3 internal volume box will give an F3 of 59Hz (while using 50Hz 2nd order high pass to protect from excessive excursion.) VS about 98HZ for the Celestion (after the 60HZ second order HIGHPASS) It would give this speaker a much better frequency range. So would be better for a surround speaker or center channel. 98Hz 3db down I don’t feel is not low enough for surround speakers I would want at least 70Hz 3db down. Would work good for a center channel or even front left and right. There is no reason to limit this speaker to just 100HZ specially if you don’t have too.
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I finally got around to getting some pictures of the final build (not painted). These are very thin. Only 8 in deep.
The off-axis performance is unbelievable. Making them perfect for rear surrounds. I decided to make my own ports. But you could use premade ones.
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@123toid They look great! But Nick, please add some flares to the ports. With none at all, chuffing starts at such low velocities, as I’m sure you are aware. A program called Flare-It works really well. Take the velocities from win-ISD and enter them into the program, there’s spaces for 20,25,30 and 35hz, since it is designed around a port that has a peak at 35hz, it can be translated so that the peak value is substituted into the 35hz spot and the rest of the values are in steps of 5hz, each below the last value. I have found it to be very accurate, I only came across it recently when researching port turbulences.
Elliott Dyson – Elliott Designs (YouTube) – 3rd year MENG Student -
@elliottdesigns that’s a great point about flaring the ports. This particular design doesn’t need the ports flared. There’s multiple reasons for this. But one of the things that you want to keep in mind when looking at Port velocity of a speaker is to type in your high pass that you intend to use. In this case, these speakers are designed for surround sound use and will never be crossover lower than 80 Hertz. At least the design for this is we crossed over no later than 80 Hz.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if you do round over the ports, you do lose port length. So you’ll need to lengthen the port approximately half of the flare.
Finally another thing to think about with flared ports, is it to get maximum Port velocity, you actually should flare both ends. They’re definitely times where flared ports are needed and necessary. But in this particular case a flared port isn’t. However if you really wanted to do it for looks, you definitely could.
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@123toid Thanks, Nick, I am aware of those things about ports already, but not that you are using an 80hz highpass on those, it makes sense now, thank you. It’s probably good you mentioned those points anyway as it will most likely help others 👍
Elliott Dyson – Elliott Designs (YouTube) – 3rd year MENG Student -
It’s a great point. In fact I believe that a lot of beginners don’t take into account for port velocity and or power handling. And I really don’t believe a lot of beginners take into account there high pass and how that will affect it. I think it’s an absolute great point. They’re very easy things to overlook.
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@123toid The order and even type of highpass can make a considerable difference too, and I believe they are missed even more often!
Elliott Dyson – Elliott Designs (YouTube) – 3rd year MENG Student -
Here are some completed pictures. Family health recently has gotten in the way of me finishing editing the video. It will be out this Sunday.
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@123toid Hope everything is ok at home now Nick (wellness wise).
As for the speakers, they look great, loving the build quality and the colour too (even if it’s not really for my decor 😂)! I’d worry a bit about port turbulences though, there doesn’t appear to be a flair (unless I missed it, images are quite contrasty), there’s actually a lot of really interesting engineering as to why flairs are so important, even if just small. It’s to do with how the boundary changes between the enclosed space of the port and the comparatively infinite space it opens into, also known as a part of the boundary layer effect. I won’t go far into it (unless people ask of course), but I thought it worth mentioning.
I know with this speaker, the lack of flare is probably needed since there’s no more room on the baffle for conventional ports, and you’d mentioned previously how it’s not really necessary when crossed over high enough to a subwoofer. However, I’d be more than happy to model up some ports that make better use of space on the baffle so the port area can remain the same whilst allowing for a flare. I’ve done this with 3d printing with great success in the past, just let me know, it might be a nice upgrade in the future or maybe for a V10.5?
Loving the cinema series style! Keep it up!
Elliott
Elliott Dyson – Elliott Designs (YouTube) – 3rd year MENG Student -
@123toid Did some quick digging and it looks like I could get the KPT-8000M for ballpark $1000 and the KPT-1200m is around $1200. However I dont know if this is inclusive of taxes as im in the UK. My guess would be that figure is the list price with no taxes applied
Josh Evans, Professional Live Sound Engineer, High End Commercial AV Install Technician-
Could be. Of course, theaters typically buy in bulk. Multiple screens at once. Of course, we can’t even buy them unless we own a movie theater…I don’t think they’ll count my home theater 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Of course. I should point out I got that price based on if I were buying multiple to install in a movie theatre in dubai then converted from AED to GBP to USD. I cant get them shipped to my front door at home either haha
Josh Evans, Professional Live Sound Engineer, High End Commercial AV Install Technician -
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Here is the sound Demo: KEEP IN MIND THIS WAS TAKEN WITH A GO PRO.
I don’t think I’ll rerecord it, but here is the best for now.
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Michael Buble – Fever
Whitney Houston, I’ll always Love You
Just keep in mind, this is being recorded with a Go Pro and being compressed by YouTube, so it definitely isn’t a one to one recording.
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It does come with a Cut list and shows where to put speakers out etc. But it doesn’t come with the CNC files.
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This week on Sound Advice, Justin and I will be discussing this build, along with Celestion drivers. Ryan from Impulse audio. We may even touch on the Elusive 1099’s that he designed.
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The deal to sell the Cinema 10’s fell through. So I decided to bring them downstairs. I actually disconnected the center channel speaker and I’m running these as a phantom center. So it ends up being a 4.1.2. basically a 5.1 with two Dolby Atmos speakers minus the center. I got to say, I absolutely love these speakers.
P.S. Sorry about the mess. I threw out my back so I haven’t really been cleaning up as much as I usually do.
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What do you think of the Dayton Audio MB1025-8 10? I saw these and they look similar but when ordering 5, they are about $125 cheaper.
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That actually looks pretty incredible. Especially if it truly models that well down to 64 Hz. You can tell they saved some money with the stamped steel frame, but that wouldn’t be an issue with something like this. The main concern I would have is the cone breakup at 3Khz. Just making sure you can tame that well enough for a two way. It may end up being better for a three-way. That is jsut a guess without really diving any deeper or seeing distortion graphs.
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Just ordered CD and Woofer on Amazon and XO parts on PE- Doing LCR as Cinema 10 as some apps have garbage dialogue another wise phantom center for the win. 2 Cinema 6s for surrounds. HOw have they handled being mains with such small xmax? (2mm)
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They work fine as mains. Just keep in mind they’re designed to be used with a subwoofer. These aren’t going to produce earth-shattering bass. Instead, these are going to be clear while allowing your subwoofer to do the job it was designed to do. Your surround sound receiver should cross them over between 80 and 120 HZ depending on your room.
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@Xshawnx300 No I don’t think it would match up. However, once I finish my latest build, I could let my B&C compression drivers, I have in my Cinema 6 go.
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My first post! I’ve been watching your content on youtube, and I am really impressed. You have a lot of interesting projects, but I think this would be a good starting point for me. I did notice that the tweeter you used is backordered on PE. Haven’t checked to see if it’s available elsewhere, but is there an alternative you’d recommend if these are not available right now?
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I honestly have never even thought about using a different tweeter. It just is a perfect compliment for those speakers. It stinks they are on backorder. IT seems there are way too many that are on backorder.
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I really am enjoying watching these builds. In a 14x17x8 ft room would you prefer 3 cinema 6 speakers, or 3 cinema 10 speakers for an lcr? The TV is on the 14ft wall. 99% movies and TV. The kids sit farthest out at about 25-30° from center.
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@JCarp I don’t’ think you will go wrong with either. I think I would prefer the cinema 10 for that room, due to the better off-axis response. But that is more of a judgement call.
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That was kinda my thought. I tend to over think these things lol. My main goal is that this will be my wife’s introduction to home theater. If this goes well I have a similar sized room in the basement I’d like to go all out on. Is there a huge difference in the clarity between the two speakers, or are they pretty close? I think my biggest hurdle will be getting the right amount of bass where it hits low frequencies, but doesn’t overpower the room, and most importantly my wife’s ears. Thanks again for your help.
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@123toid Thank you for your channel and ideas. I’ve just purchased the cinema 10 and soundstage 15. To build a L&R of SS15 and Use the C10 for centre and rear surrounds.
I probably should have asked this before I bought them but is that a good combo?
I am thinking of mounting the C10’s in wall too, just to get it past the wife as we don’t have a dedicated cinema room but this will be in the family television room, do you see any problems with that?
Thanks again.
PS I’m also looking at one of your subs and the Dinas for some powered monitors for my guitar.
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@ adrian, that is a great combo. There won’t be a bad seat in the house. If you wanted to do a third SOundstage 15 for a center, that would also be fine. I typically like my front three to be the same. However, even in my theater room I am building, that isn’t currently the case.
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@123toid Thanks, I hope all the seats will be good ones too! 🙂
I was thinking that would be good but the SS15 is a fair bit bigger than the C10 and I had to compromise for space also it would have been a battle get that passed my wife.
I just saw your Eminence Atmos roofs and might see if I can do that too.
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Thank you- loving the speakers- I did 3/4′ Red Oak Ply for front baffle 3/4″ MDF for rest. Sort of a paper mache type for paint. I got bad lottery on this lot of ply not as good as ones i used for sealed subs but still turned out well. Using them for LCR- I screwed up and thought I had tube for port, and I didn’t so I had to spend some time modeling port and loving the slim port.
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How well do these speakers compare to the Cinema 6’s? seem like they may have a similar frequency response. I understand these were designed as a surround speaker but which has the best sound when used as a front speaker?
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That is an excellent question. Some of this depends on your room and your preference. The cinema 10 have a very wide dispersion (meaning more of the seats will receive the same sound). This makes covering a large area better and also envelopes you more with sound. THe Cinema 6 on the other hand have a much narrower dispersion. THis is better for localization, ie telling where the sound is coming from the scene, but also won’t envelop you as much. This can be very beneficial for small rooms. Hopefully this helps.
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The SOundstage 15’s sound larger. Not only do they do deeper in bass, but they have more displacement. Both the Cinema 10 and Soundstage 15 are very good at developing the listener. In fact, I have used both in my living room with no center channel at all. And honestly, the sound felt like it was coming from the middle of the television. In that regards, they are both very similar. But the Cinema 10 were never designed to really play lower than 80hz.
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These look great! I’m strongly considering building at least 3 of these for LCRs in my theater with a DIY AT screen.
@123toid Any recommendations on distance from the screen these should be?Ideally I’d have 5 of these for a bed layer but I think 8″ deep speakers would stick out too much on my side walls. Any suggestions for a slim or on-wall surround speaker build to pair with these?
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That sounds like a great plan! Honestly, testing is the best way tot ell what distance they should be. I would love to throw an arbitrary number up there, but that’s all it would be. Some of this will depend o your material. I would do some testing if I could, even if it is just your ears.
I don’t currently have any recommendations.
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Hey there first post, sorta nervous. Love the channel and the message you stand for. Here is where I am scared. I want to build this(at least for a center but probably L-C-R) but I can not figure out crossovers. On the build video you showed a graph on how you got the cross over to cross from the woofer to the tweeter. How do you determine the point and then also, how do you construct a cross over with that break over frequency? I see premade ones but I think you’re building them. I apologize in advance but promise I can learn lol. Thank you.
P.S. Do you think by changing from the 10” to maybe this
<h1 class=”product-details-full-content-header-title”>Epique E180HE-44 7″</h1>
it could produce better sound? Just a thought. Also sorry for the weird font on copy and paste.-
Taylor that’s an absolute great question. When you buy the plans, there is a breakdown of the crossover inside the plans. It is a custom designed crossover, but if you have any issues or any problems, trying to understand the layout, I would be happy to walk you through it.
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Hey toid, I am building these cinema 10 for my left/ right fronts, I wonder if there a way to make a horizontal design that would match these speakers, let’s say with dual 8″ and that same waveguide and cd… Or if you have any ideas for me because I don’t think I can fit a cinema 10 as a center Chanel.
Thanks
Marc
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@Chewbrocoli I would try it without a cent first. You might be surprised. Depending on your room, a center might not be needed. I know I ran these in a fll atmo setup in my living room, with a phantom center. And I had absolutely no issues at all. In fact, it felt like the voices were coming from the center of the television. But if you did want to run a center, you would have to design something that would include either something like some 6.5’s or 8″ to pair with it. Maybe even use the same Faital Pro’s I used in the Cinema 6 build.
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For a center, how about something like a pair of the FaitalPRO 8FE200 wired in series and then paired with the same horn and compression driver from the Cinema 10? Power handling will be on par as will the initial SPL.
No, I haven’t put any of this into WinISD or XSim, so this is just a hypothetical. Use a 1.5 CuFt box, interior dims. around 9″x34″x(+-)8″ and a 3″ equivalent port on each side, 2-3/4″ long will tune the ports to 69 Hz and an F3 of 63 Hz.
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Hi All,
Just bought all the parts to build the speakers. This is my first DIY speaker built.
These speakers perfectly fit my living room but I’m considering to use them without a subwoofer (this constraint comes from my wife).
Any suggestion on how to modify the crossover to work on lower freqencies? I don’t need an earth-shattering bass. I will mainly use them to listen music.
Thanks
Enrico
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The speakers really aren’t designed to go lower than 80hz. That has to do with the driver being used and not the crossover. If you want more bass, you can always turn it up on your amplifier. But the driver itself is still going to be limited.
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I finally made them. My first project ever. It wasn’t easy, especially the cutting of the MDF and the milling but I did it. As said I wanted to avoid putting a subwoofer, so I increased the volume to 35 liters and tuned the bass reflex to 65 Hz with Winisd.
They sound incredibly good although the changes I made probably worsened the initial design 😉
Thank you
Enrico
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They look incredible! I like the black on black. As far as the increase in volume, as long as you like it, that is all that matters. They definitely look much larger than the satellite speaker you have behind them.
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I’m testing the speakers with different music and volume.
Jazz sounds really good as well as electronic music like kraftwerk.
I still need to take some frequency response measurement but I found that noisy music (lots of guitars) plays a little confused and it looks like the cabinet vibrates at certain mid-low freqs.
I thought the dampening material might be insufficient on incorrect.
Now I have 2cm polyester fiber 50Kg/m3 density
I was thinking to go for the material below (3 or 5 cm) may be with an underlying layer of reticulated PE with an inner lead foil.
Do you have any suggestions to make the speaker sound cleaner with such music?
Thanks
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Something to aware of, depending how well the music is mixed/mastered you could be hearing low mid resonances is the music its self not the cabinet. this is actually quite common in guitar heavy music even in high quality productions from big record labels.
As you say jazz sounds good that makes me lean towards saying its the guitar tracks that have the resonaces as jazz is a typicaly a very warm and fat sounding genre tonally. the same frequencys i suspect you are hearing in the guitar music tracks will be quite prominent in the jazz tracks too just covered by different instruments with different harmonic overtone structures
Id wait until you can get some frequency sweep response measurements to know for sure if its cabinet or the tracks before you start looking into different materials
Josh Evans, Professional Live Sound Engineer, High End Commercial AV Install Technician -
If you are concerned about resonance, then I would first start with bracing. Just cut some pieces out and brace a few more spots. But I would first listen to Josh Evans he knows what he is talking about.
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Looking at this graph makes me even more suspect it was the tracks that had the mushy guitar resonances. Although not a perfectly flat graph it is still smooth with no sharp peaks sticking out. The speakers may have an overall warmer bass heavy tone than a true flat reference speaker but as far as I can see (without listening to the speaker in person) nothing on that graph indicates to me problematic individual frequency resonances
If you yet me know the guitar tracks you were using to test and I’ll check them out on one of my calibrated, true reference, audio mixing setups. Then I’ll be able to tell you for sure if it is in the track
Josh Evans, Professional Live Sound Engineer, High End Commercial AV Install Technician -
Thanks Josh, I’m quite sure you are right. I noticed it e.g. with vinyl Nevermind by Nirvana but now it plays well. I have to say this week I bought a new record player (Audiotecnica lp120). I think this made the difference.
Thanks for stopping me reopening the speakers for nothing and suggesting more investigation.
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2 of the 5 I built
3 in their rough LCR positions within the screen goalposts
Custom built stands to match
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I am really liking that black on black on black. THat looks really slick! Perfect for your AT screen. I can’t wait to see them all 5 finished! You are killing it!
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I’ll get some shots of the two surrounds next time I’m down there. I left these first three raw spray painted MDF because they’ll always be hidden behind the AV screen but the surrounds were primered with BIN and came out a little nicer.
I rounded things out with a VBSS to handle to low end and the sound of the combo is incredible. I’m stepping up to a 9 channel receiver this week and doing some calibration. Also starting to consider 4 ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in the near future, possibly a coaxial arrangement.
Here’s a link to the whole theater build thread over at AVS:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/cedar-room-theater-build.3248545/
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