Help me build my end game speakers!

[Chedwin]

Is that 500 per speaker or 500 in total?

If per speaker I’d sugesst going down a coaxial route with the 10″ B&C 10FCX64

https://www.parts-express.com/B-C-10FCX64-10-Professional-Coaxial-Speaker-70-x-70-8-Ohm-294-5767?quantity=1

A coaxial driver alignment for mid/high will give you by far the best tightness and crispness to the sound as the phase alignment is essentially perfect. 10″ wont go as low as a 15″ but it should be fairly easy to design a cabinet that will blend nicely between the 18″ sub and the 10″ mid woofer

How does this option sound to you?

[DjCreative]

Thanks for the response! Originally I had in mind 500 total UNLESS the difference in sound was necessary. I looked up coaxial speakers and see that the tweeter is actually a part of the speaker. The first question that comes to mind is how is the tweeter not muffled when put in a box? is it to be used in an open baffle? Edit: it looks like some coaxial speakers are see through in the middle thus allowing the tweeter to play through. is that the case with this? Also, I like that you mentioned it would be nice n crisp but will it be loud enough for me and why don’t I see more of these speakers? Cheers!

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  DjCreative.
• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  DjCreative.

[Chedwin]

In coaxial drivers the tweeter is either mounted in front of the woofer dust cap or plays through the centre of the woofer magnet, there is never any impedement or obstruction to the tweeter by the woofer. They essentially act as a single driver combining acoustically to radiate all frequencies from a single point in space, most notably in the crossover range as they are time and phase aligned in all directions no matter where you stand in relation to the speaker

Coaxial drivers are more complicated and expensive to design and make so they are nealy always more costly than 2 separate drivers of equal performance, this is why you dont see them as often especially in the more affordable DIY scene. In my part of the high end pro audio world I see coaxial used alot as the audio quality benefit they can provide is usualy worth it to us no matter the cost difference

Doing a quick WINISD model with the driver it looks like we can get 117db RMS @250W with extension down to about 70hz which is plenty for the subs to then take over

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

The only thing I would say against those coaxials is that they are relatively narrow dispersion; So if you want high dispersion, I would look for something else. I personally really like the Soundstage 15 in that price range. They do excellent with both music and movies and get really loud without distortion. They are also high enough efficiency to not have to worry about upgrading your amplification. Interestingly enough, the person I originally designed them for said they didn’t realize how loud they were until he tried to talk to someone next to him. They are that clean and clear. And as the name implies, they have a very wide soundstage.

[DjCreative]

Thanks for the replies fellas! Chedwin, 250 watts rms would mean I couldn’t power them with my av receiver wich is 100 I believe. I am definitely open to coaxial speakers now! Toids, are you the youtube toids? Also, how narrow of dispersion? enough to cover a 3-seat couch? Can i get a link to the driver your suggesting? What tweeter would you use?

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  DjCreative.

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

Those coaxials are designed to be stage monitors for musicians. So it is pretty narrow. Basically, the dust cap is acoustically transparent and underneath the dust cap is a very small conical waveguide (horn). That is all that controls the directivity. There is also a doplar effect that comes off of these. In all, This type of speaker makes a good atmos speaker, but it wouldn’t be my first choice, especially if I was designing and endgame speaker.

https://youtu.be/wNO_ddqOYrw

And endgame speaker to me would use the Eminence n314x-8 driver and then some type of midrange. I already mode one of these with a 15″ that I absolutely love. And I am working on making one with a 12″ paired with the same horn that I used on the 15″ version. Then a MTM version with two 12″ paired with this horn. The cool thing about this horn is that it is the same size width and height, meaning you can flip it if you want a horizontal center or flip it if you want a vertical MTM. I am still waiting on the parts and they are out of the price range you originally said.

In general, I would look for something with a wider dispersion. And typically constant directivity is desired in Home Theater builds.

Oh and yes, it is me from YouTube 🤣

Here is the 15″ build.

[Chedwin]

Sorry Nick but I need to correct you on a couple of parts of this. You are correct that at 70×70 they are reletively narrow in the horizontal compared to typical drivers used for home theatre but to say its primarily designed to be a stage monitor for musicans is false and a misconception I see often for these type of drivers that I cant work out the origin of.

Yes we do use these types of drivers in stage monitors but more often you will see them used in music focused audience PA speakers and high end studio monitors. A large majority of the £,£££-££,£££ priced high end studio monitors are moving toward using these types of coaxial drivers for the mid/high with separate woofer in a 3 way config. Some of the best sounding music focused PA systems for high end bars and clubs Ive been part of building use these pro coaxial style drivers for the main audience coverage as no matter where in the speakers coverage area you stand you get consistent vocal tone/clarity due to the perfect phase alignment in all axis and the transient response to drum hit attack or higher frequency vocal detail can often be percieved as much faster/cleaner than a standard separate driver arrangement when loaded into a properly designed cabinet

Whilst it would be fair to say they are not as widely suitable for all DIY and home audio setups due to needing more consideration towards the application suitability I dont think its fair to say they are only good for atmos speakers within a home audio setup. WIth proper understanding of their specs and cabinet design requiements they can be used to make better speakers than traditional separate driver speakers however I do very much appreciate this may not be an as widely approachable design path to the DIY comminity.

Please dont take this the wrong way, its not meant as an attack or critisism, as always I’m just trying to spread my knowledge to help widen the understanding of the community 😃

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

I am not taking it as a criticism. We all have our opinions and have each seen different applications. That is what makes the forum so great. We can both talk about our experience. There isn’t necessarily someone who is right or wrong in this instance. It’s just advice based on our experience.

I’ve used a few before by Eminence. Just to clarify I don’t think they should only be used for Atmos, but in my opinion that is the best use in a typical surround sound setup. I haven’t personally used the B&C, but I know it is the same concept as the Eminence. Having said that Diy Audio Guy and I recently interviewed Geoff from B&C group. and this is what he had to say about the B&C coaxial.

https://www.youtube.com/live/shoMP1ttsho?si=OzJjQF5yIZfBlbew&t=939

I do agree, I have seen people use them as fronts and even center channel. But every engineer I have talked to, whether B&C or Eminence has talked about it’s very narrow dispersion which is by design. And that design originally was around stage monitors pointed toward the musician. But as we all know, just because that was it’s original design doesn’t mean it needs to stay there 😁

[Chedwin]

Thanks for the link, missed that episode of the live show

This style of pro audio coaxial are for sure alot narrower than typical driver choices but of course listening distance plays a part in coverage along side dispersion. I would say that with the sensitivity and sustained SPL output of these pro coax drivers that if the 70 degree width is too narrow you are too close and your ears are already bleeding 🤣

I have been eyeing the triaxial myself, I want to see it used in the LCR screen stage too! One of the pro audio manufacturer here in England has just released a triax speaker with what looks to be a non public 15″ version but ive not been able to confirm that, the compression driver housing looks suspiciously similar to me. the Martin Audio THS (wont let me post a link)

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

B&C actually sells a triaxial 18″ 😱 I may try to get my hands on a few. Those are crazy, as they have the horn protruding out through the woofer. They look awesome. And i would bet an endgame speaker.

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/triaxials/18-0/8/18HTX100-8

bcspeakers.com

18HTX100 Triaxials - B&C Speakers

100 dB (LF), 110 dB (MF/HF) sensitivity, 1600 W continuous program power capacity, 60°x40° nominal coverage, 44 - 18000 Hz response, FEA optimized horn flare for improved acoustic loading and controlled coverage, Double silicone spider with optimized compliance, Aluminium demodulating … Continue reading

[Chedwin]

Yes Ive seen the 18″ triaxial driver, Martin Audio seem to have access to a 15″ smaller brother driver of the 18″ but I cant get confirmation from anyone yet.

I feel a 15″ triax would be more suitable to be combined with 18″-21″ subwoofers if it ever becomes public

Would love to see you build with the triax if you can get hold of them

• This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Chedwin. Reason: added photo of Martin THS driver

[TVOR-Ceasar]

I’ve been kicking around an idea since Nick posted the speakers inspired by the Klipsch KPT-325. I thought, something a bit more slimline, yet still pretty healthy. I was looking at 10″ drivers, but there were some drawbacks to most in a 2 way system, notably a big hole in the available crossover region. So I started looking at 8″ drivers that would go with the Dayton Audio Ryman 1017S compression driver and the PRV WG23-25 Waveguide. Why that waveguide? It’s only 10″ wide. That will make for a slim cabinet. Plus, I personally like the look of it.

So, what would work for the 8″? Initially, I was looking at the GRS drivers, but the graphs were not pleasing. I turned to the Dayton Audio drivers and the RS225P-8A Reference Woofer would be a good fit. Put it in a ported 2 CuFt enclosure and it’ll sit right at 34 Hz. And with 7mm XMax it looks like it’ll hit pretty good. At 89 dB and 80W RMS (160W max) It should be more than enough to rock you. Crossover probably somewhere between 1500-2000 Hz.

To the enclosure, just spit-balling, with 3/4″ stock, 11″ face, 14″ deep, minimum 30.5″-31″ high, probably more when you add in bracing and driver / horn displacement / vent displacement, you can have a nice tower with the horn set just about ear level. The slim face helps reduce diffraction and baffle step, which should make it easier to design a crossover. Of course, you’ll have to pad down the compression driver by a good bit, there’s about a n 18 dB difference in the drivers. That’s what the crossover is for.

So, for the parts, Woofer ~$85, Tweeter ~ $55, Horn ~$8, that’s $148 / speaker, $296 a pair. Add in parts for the crossover and wood, etc., and the $500 goal seems achievable.

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

That’s a great idea! I am a big fan of that KPT build (The Cinema 10). Honestly, that might be the best build for him if he didn’t want to design something himself. That has great off-axis design.

https://youtu.be/RQlrNc3qqnw?si=CKVotwu2FaSxX_da

I always love your ideas. You really come up with some great ones. Keep them coming TVOR.

[DjCreative]

Wow! Great advice. Thanks for your suggestions. That compression driver is sick! What woofer would you go with then? the one in the video? Furthermore, IF I was going to go with something in between those prices, how could I possibly choose a pair? You guys seem to be suggesting speakers from the pro selection. Should I avoid looking into the “hifi” area? Also, whatever speakers I go with I’m going to need help designing the crossover and box. Is that something you could help me with? CHEERS!

[TVOR-Ceasar]

It’s all about choices. The Cinema 10 is a proven build and would work very well with your subwoofers. Granted, just the price of the drivers and horn/adapter puts you over $400 per pair, and availability goes in and out. right now availability is slim, and that doesn’t include crossovers and other materials, so the $500 is looking like it’ll run over. plus, you’ll need a stand, which there’s been another member (Nate’s post:: Diy-Stand-For-Your-Surround-Speakers) who built stands for theirs that would be easy. The biggest pluses are they are very efficient and very clean and proven.

My thought exercise is still in the what-if stage. I use a mix of Hi-Fi and Professional drivers, just to get the most even sound I can from the get go, even though the tweeter has to be padded down quite a bit. Pluses are price and availability, no need for a stand, and they are a relatively small footprint, and would work with the subwoofers. Downsides are less efficient by almost 10 dB, unproven combination, still in the early concept stages which means there’s design and refinement that needs to be done, which would need to be a collaboration due to schedules. It would also means there might be a redesign with different components due to unforeseen issues.

Also, and this is a very personal thing, what do you see as your endgame speaker? We know the basic criteria, but what about aesthetics? are the DJ style speakers up your alley, or would something outlandish like some monstrous horns or a more standard stylized box (Focal-ish) be what you want or need for your space? Towers? Bookies? Sub/Sat (Bose style) or even stealth. So far, you have 2 different offerings. Very different, with similar end goal in mind.

[DjCreative]

Honestly, it could be an absolute eye sore and as long as it sounded good id love it! I’m not married to any design. In fact, I like the look of bare mdf and I would not paint the cabinet if I built one. Always Forever, with 100kW and 29subs – YouTube This guy is where I got a great deal of my inspiration. Not that I would have 29 subs but I like his no-nonsense approach to it. Like I said in my original post I already like my set up and enjoy it very much. The endgame speaker idea is just more peace of mind than anything. I want to know that I have the best of the best (within reason) for my price. Thats why I came here because I figured I could get a lot more quality out of my dollar going diy and funny enough a lot of toids YouTube videos show that. IDK. Still thinking. I Love the idea of the coaxial speaker due to its simplicity and phase alignment. Definitely open to that. Also, definitely considering the eminence route as well. Something tells me I could cut those eminence prices in half and still accomplish what I have in mind. Although, to have peace of mind might be worth the price. Thanks for all the responses! Cheers!

• This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  DjCreative.

[Chedwin]

I did originally suggest the B&C 10FCX64 as an example of a pro audio coaxial but there are other options than might work better for you budget and use case if you do decide to go down the coaxial route.

B&C have some 8″ coaxials that are 100 x 100 and are in the $250-$300 on parts express right now. The crossover point between subs and mains would have to move a bit higher with the smaller 8″ diameter but that shouldnt be a problem. 100W should give you ballpark 110db down to 85hz with the 8CXN51 for example

The crossover design can be a bit harder with these pro coaxials but we will be able to help you with that or you can buy pre made x-over from B&C for several of their coaxial drivers (extra cost but saves time and effort cost vs DIY x-over). The cabinet deisgn for coaxials can be simpler/easier to build vs separates however

[Toids_DIY_Audio]

@DjCreative why don’t you check out the theater build that @Nate is doing right now. It might help with some inspiration. He even talks about his thoughts on the Cinema 10 speakers. https://toidsdiyaudio.com/forums/discussion/the-home-theater-build-code-named-tht

And @Chedwin is absolutely correct that we will help you with the crossovers, assuming you have the measurement tools, to make sure you are happy if you want to go the DIY route that isn’t already designs.

toidsdiyaudio.com

The home theater build code-named THT

Home › Forums › Home Theater › The home theater build code-named THT Home Theater The home theater build code-named THT Posted by Nate on September 20, 2023 at 7:45 am To be fi…

[Nate]

I would highly recommend Cinema 10s to anyone starting out their DIY speakers build. The Cinema 10s are very versatile and comparatively easier and cheaper to build. I built 4 of these to be used as surrounds in my own home theater room. But honestly speaking, they can be used as primary LCRs in small-to-midsize home theaters. I am very happy with the sound quality of these speakers. One of the cleanest sound I ever listened to.

As far as painting the MDF shell of the speakers is concerned, any light color object in a home theater room can be distracting. I personally won’t like my speakers to be visible while watching movies. I have painted my speakers and subs using Exohyde – a black color that also works as a protective layer.